607

by Zico 290 Replies latest jw friends

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    To add to my comments last night, I could also note that pseudo-scholar's interpretation of the "seventy years", not coincidentally shared by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, construes this period as a chronological datum critical to an accurate chronology of the Neo-Babylonian period. This is one of the most fundamental features of his chronology, and he regularly criticizes others for treating it as "symbolic" or non-literal to avoid "the exegetical difficulty", or the differing attempts to apply this period to a historical period other than 607 to 537 BC. Jonsson himself presents several optional ways of construing the period as applying to a literal 70 years while at the same time acknowledging that it may also have been figurative. If Applegate "vindicates" pseudo-scholar and "destroys" Jonsson with respect to the "seventy years", one would think that Applegate would at least support this rather basic assumption of pseudo-scholar. Yet in addition to supporting a "higher critical" view of subsequent interpretation of the "seventy years" in 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Daniel, etc. (and later redaction of the prophecies within the Jeremianic text itself), Applegate also clearly indicates that the "seventy years" is in Jeremiah a non-chronological period:

    "Although it is not gone uncriticised, the current consensus on Jeremiah's use appears to be that, by convention, ancient near eastern peoples anticipated seventy years of divine displeasure for a city or land that fell foul of its god, and that an actual period of seventy years may also be in view. As to which period of seventy years is in view, this varies from writer to writer... There is little concensus on this matter and it may be that Jer uses the term only loosely or to symbolize the fullness of time or simply to mean 'a long time' (cf. Jer 28; 29.3-10) -- perhaps the duration of one or more generations (cf. Ps 90.10; Job 42.16; Jer 27.7). As R. P. Carroll remarks,

    It cannot be determined whether a literal, metaphorical or conventional meaning should be understood as the meaning of the phrase 'seventy years'. All are possible categories for it and its use in a number of traditions outside Jeremiah ... is indicative of its flexibility of meaning and reference.

    Similar comments might be made of the 'forty years' of Israel's wilderness experience and in Ez 4.6 and 29.13. In the end, it is the variety of responses to Jeremiah's 'seventy years' that will form one of the foci of this study" (pp. 92-93).

    On the same page, he also discusses the fact that "seventy years" is used "in the context of the letter to the first deportees", thus "the 'seventy years' in 29.10 would seem to date from 597 BC," i.e. before the destruction of Jerusalem but when the "first deportees" were taken captive. Pseudo-scholar of course does not view the "seventy years" as already in progress when Jeremiah wrote the "letter to the exiles", so it is hard to see again how Applegate "vindicates" him. In discussing Jeremiah 29:10 in more detail, Applegate suggests that "the seventy years are to be understood symbolically as the time anticipated for a god's punishment of his people. If we are to give credence to this view then we must assume that the exiles were aware of it and that it would be appropriate for Jeremiah to address this expectation" (p. 97). Again, the period is described as "symbolic" and already in progress before the destruction of Jerusalem; it is the period of their god's displeasure with the nation. Notice that Applegate does not define the seventy years in the idiosyncratic way that pseudo-scholar does by requiring that it applies to a period of (1) desolation PLUS (2) exile PLUS (3) servitude. By requiring all three in every mention of the "seventy years" in the OT, pseudo-scholar can only reckon the start of the "seventy years" after the destruction of Jerusalem. Applegate gives no support to this view and he clearly views that each mention of the seventy years should be taken on their own terms and not be harmonized with all other mentions as referring to the same exact thing. Thus he claims that Zechariah has a "precise chronological meaning of the seventy" (p. 109), while others attest to "the flexibility of interpretation of Jeremiah's seventy years" as well.

    How funny that pseudo-scholar accused me of concocting "wild theories" when I expressed my suspicions of what Applegate would likely say. If he had read the article as he claimed he did, he knew full well that Applegate regarded 2 Chronicles, Daniel, etc. as reinterpreting Jeremiah exactly as I had suspected. Rather than answer my question in the affirmative ("You're right, that is Applegate's perspective, but..."), he shot back that I was expressing "wild concoted theories", implying I was way off base in my suspicions. And rather than try to fairly represent us what Applegate actually wrote ("Here is his thesis in a nutshell..."), he hid these facts from us being content to baldly claim that Applegate "vindicates" pseudo-scholar and "destroys" Jonsson without showing how this is the case.

    BTW, here is the actual abstract from the article itself. I requested such an abstract which pseudo-scholar refused to give. Judge for yourself whether it "vindicates" pseudo-scholar:

    "The paper examines references to Jeremiah and the 'seventy years' in the Hebrew Bible, offering readings of Jer 25.11-12; 29.10; 2Chr 35.25; 36.11-23; Ezra 1.1-11; Zech 1.1-17 and Dan 9. The study concludes that the Jeremianic prophecies have been influential in a variety of ways, partly due to their flexibility of interpretation arising from the absence of any indication about which term of seventy years is intended" (p. 109).

    Does that sound like what pseudo-scholar has been saying? No. Pseudo-scholar has a very rigid interpretation that he applies to ALL texts in Jeremiah, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Daniel, without any "flexibility of interpretation", they begin at 607 and end at 537 BC for him, regardless of the differences between the texts themselves. To be sure, this is imho a flaw in Jonsson's approach as well who like pseudo-scholar views the OT as inerrant, or at least assumes that later writers shared the same understanding of the "seventy years" as Jeremiah did (while Applegate construes these later writers as "creatively midrashic", p. 109), and accepts Daniel as an authentic writing from the sixth century BC (while Applegate regards it as "dated much later" "presumably during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes," with historical inaccuracies, pp. 106-108), so indeed Applegate does contradict Jonsson in many respects, but overall if Applegate "destroys" Jonsson, then he also "destroys" pseudo-scholar on the same grounds. And yet nothing he says in contradiction to Jonsson has any bearing on Neo-Babylonian chronology. For if Applegate is right and later texts freely reinterpret the "seventy years" of Jeremiah, then they cannot be used as a basis for understanding what Jeremiah meant in his prophecies. And if Applegate is right that the texts in Jeremiah are ambiguous and can be interpreted in different ways and are figurative, then the "seventy years" cannot be used as a chronological datum, particularly one that upsets otherwise well-established chronology. While certain minor points may in small ways support one feature or another of pseudo-scholar's view (as he has cherry-picked certain things like Applegate's reference to "Jeremianic influence" in Zechariah while ignoring everything else as stuff he just doesn't "agree with", hence my critique of his use of Applegate as unscholarly "proof-texting"), the overall analysis refutes pseudo-scholar even more than Jonsson. For if the "seventy years" is to be regarded as a variable, figurative, flexible, as "symbolic of the time anticipated for a god's punishment", as "simply 'a long time' ", etc., then the basis for the 607 BC date melts away and Jonsson's chronology of the Neo-Babylonian period (= standard Neo-Babylonian chronology) goes on just fine without treating the "seventy years" as a literal period.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    1. I have not ignored the context of Jeremiah at all because the simple fact is that the Jews remained in Babylon after 539 until their release by the Decree of Cyrus which was after 539 BCE.

    There's no point even trying to get through to you because you are wilfully ignorant. By your very statement above, you confirm that you are ignoring the clearly stated fact that the end of the 70 years would be marked by the judgement of Babylon's king.

    2. Indeed it was certainly foretold by Daniel that Bazbylon would fall to the Medo Persians and tyhis event happened in 539 paving the way for the end of the Jewish exile in 537 BCE.

    At least you agree with something, however your placement of the end of the 70 years is still wrong.

    3. The Jews could not have returned home in in 538 as this does not allow for the return home journey unless you beliueve in supersonic air travel by QANTAS in the 6th century BCE.

    You silly man. They had several months to return. And QANTAS doesn't offer super-sonic flights anyway.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    When a writer makes some statements and immediately follows them with a dash and something like "see the following source reference . . .", he obviously intends that the reader understand that the reference is cited to support all of the statements. This is especially true of the statement immediately preceding the source reference. Anyone who does not understand this basic method of dealing with supporting references......

    Well said Alan.

    Further the brackets in the Insight vol2 would lead one to believe thats what Grayson meant, my elder step dad was so convinced he went on line and had to see for himself. He actually bought Graysons book, and we looked at it together while we had our study. Guess what? Nothing was ever mentioned again about 607.

    Just a glance of the referenced quotes in the "Should you believe in the Trinity" one can discern the dishonesty throughout the brochure.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    ellderwho, your experience with your dad is typical of similar experiences with JWs in general. They have to be led literally by the nose to the facts, and when they see them, they shrug them off as if of no importance, and just go on blindly accepting their braindead cult teachings. It's astounding how otherwise intelligent people can so easily turn off their brains when cult demands exceed normal behaviors.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Something like the following gibberish will be scholar pretendus' response to the above lengthy posts:

    << The seventy years as interpreted by the celebrated WT scholars is treated in a singular manner giving a holistic understanding of matters. Scholars and advocates of the Jonsson hypothesis give various interpretations lacking coherence and agreement such views rob the seventy years of any prophetism. However, interpretation is a subjects of choice and the reader must decide for himself which is better and works. >>

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Scholar pretendus wrote:

    : At least Leolaia does not share your low opinon of me

    Yeah, she does. She's just not as outspoken as I am about your complete moral stupidity and thoroughgoing dishonesty.

    : and I think does not regard me as a moron for at least she asks me a question.

    Really. I've asked you plenty of questions, and I still regard you as a complete moron, morally speaking.

    : Also, you are very much interested in my attention to your questions regarding 537/538 contoversy.

    I have no questions for you about this, in terms of understanding the facts. What I have asked of you is that you justify your claims -- which you have utterly failed to do. In other words, my questions to you are not meant for you to inform me of the facts -- for which you demonstrably have no regard -- but to challenge you to justify your stupid claims. Jesus Christ, man! You can't answer the simplest of challenges! You can't cite a single modern scholar to support your claim that the Jews returned to Judah in 537 B.C. You can't cite the Bible in support. You can't even cite Watchtower publications that might prove this claim. You can't even read the Bible with proper understanding. You remind me of the utterly braindead JW described by Raymond Franz, who actually had the stupidity to say out loud something like, "If the Society says this here green bible is black, then by golly! It's black!" In other words, scholar pretendus, the Society has trained you, with your oh so willing cooperation, to be a poster boy for the ultimate in braindeadness -- Orwellian doublethink.

    Indeed, my only goal in dealing with you is to produce posts that show how astoundingly braindead an otherwise intelligent person can be when influenced by the Watchtower cult. You've proved to be the very best shill I could have hoped for. Even if I tried very hard to simulate such braindeadness, I couldn't do it.

    : Remember, it was scholar and only scholar that first answered your questions regarding Jeremiah 25:12

    LOL! You answered nothing. You merely pressed keys on your keyboard and hit the "Send" button.

    : which from your own account baffled the late Albert Schroeder.

    He was indeed baffled. But he at least had enough left of a shred of honesty to be baffled. You, on the other hand, are equally in the dark but haven't the mental capacity to know it, or more likely, the moral capacity to admit it.

    : Also, it is scholar whoc first introduced Applegate's paper to this board which provides a rebuttal to the Jonsson garbage regarding the seventy years.

    Yeah. And at this point, it's painfully obvious that your ploy -- to introduce a reference you thought no one would be able to find and examine -- has failed. Failed not just in a little way, but spectacularly.

    And of course, the reference where you found Applegate's article will prove to be even more devastating to your stupid "methodology" than anything posted so far. Do keep looking at this thread, scholar pretendus. If by some miracle you can shuffle off the coil of your Watchtower induced braindeadness, you might actually learn something.

    AlanF

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    Response to post 4432

    No you do not understand the use of Harper's reference used in the Babylon book at all for all you have done is quoted paragraphs of the Jehoiakim article minus any relevant discussion. Upon authority do you say that because a source refernce preceeded by a dash immediately refers to the preceeding sentence? Are you then claiming that the alleged deceit by the writer of the Babylon book was the fact that 618 was the year that Nebuchadnezzer came against Jehoiakim a second time and that the date 618 should have appeared in the Harpe's Dictionary article?

    I repeat that like other Watchtower critics you have not understood why the reference to Harper's Dictionary was used so try again. You are in error when you claim that that preceeding sentence is what should have appeared in the Dictionary because if this was the case the writer would have used quotation marks and these are absent with this reference.

    As with your stupid and foolish allegations about Thiel you have once again demonstrated your hatred of truth, the Bible and Christianity.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Leolaia

    Response to post 6988

    I take issue with your observations that my treatment of the seventy years is not coincidentally shared by the Society that this period as a chronological datum for the Neo Babylonian period. In fact it is our interpretation of the seventy years as a definite historical period that falsifies current interpretations of the chronology for the Neo Babylonian period. Of course, I scoff at those who offer interpretations that exhibit a disloyalty to God's prophetic Word by either regarding the seventy years as a round number or other concocted theories such as those suggested by the Jonsson hypothesis.

    The Jonssson hypothesis does not inform its readers of the many conflicting opinions about the seventy years in commentaries and the scholarly literature. It offers several interpretations with numerous 'seventy year periods' but favours the period as best representing servitude to Babylon.

    Applegate admits the diversity of opinion and shows the history of interpretation in the literature, his analysis of the key texts is most refreshing in comparison to the dogmatic and narrow of the seventy years advocated by Jonsson. Clearly, Jonsson displays a anti-Witness bias which impugns his scholarship wheras Appleagate simply gives his opinon on the basis of scholarship. Therefore, Appl;egate's article is refreshing to read as an advancement on this much neglected subjects and offers many gems for Celebrated WT scholars in their promotion of the truth regarding the biblical seventy years.

    Applegate admits that "the current concensus on Jeremiah's use appears to be that, by convention, ancient Near Eastern peoples anticpated seventy years of divine displeasure for a city or land that fell foul of its god, and that an actual period of seventy years may also be in view." True, Applegate offers no chronology for this period but this comment supports my long held publicly staed view that any iny interpretation of the seventy years must be in harmony with the theology of the OT. Jonsson discounts such theology and prophetic significance of the seventy years seeing the period primarily as servitude to Babylon.

    Obviously, the seventy years had not then commenced prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and deportation of all the people as exiles to Babylon and Applegate's comment on Jer. 29:10 that Yahweh would visit his people in Babylon after the seventy years. It is correct to say that Applegate does not define the seventy years as a period exile, desolation and servitude but neither does he favor Jonsson's servitude position either but Applegate certainly makes observations on those key texts that give credence to the position the Society has long held.

    It is correct to say that Applegate does not advocate a precise chronology for the seventy years but he certainly acknowledges a holistic or unitary interpretation even if in a very subtle form. Applegate's concluding abstract notes the flexibility of interpretation for this period but such flexibility is omitted by Jonsson who promotes a rather dogmatic view that the seventy years was only one of servitude. Applegate's paper does not support the Jonsson nonsense as to its chronology and interpretation.

    This paper has a far greater import for the Jonsson hypothesis than for biblical chronology because the seventy years is the very basis of that hypothesis with Jonsson caught with conflicting evidence and no precise chronology. WT scholars are not dependent on this paper but it is a useful contribution to the current debate with studies on Jeremiah, for me it serves as a corrective or litmus test to Jonsson's fanciful theories that his findings are not based ujpon sound biblical scholarship. I believe that Applegate's paper exposes such foolish chronology with its flawed understanding of the seventy years as a sham, a fraud.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    1. The end of the seventy years was marked by the return of the exiles, the land repopulated but still in servitude to a new king at Babylon with her foretold destruction to come.

    2. The end of the seventy years was in 537 BCE and Applegate agrees by noting with regard to Jer.29;10"" that after seventy years, Yahweh will visit his people in order to do them good and restore them to their land".

    3. They would certainly had enough time returning home by the seventh month in the year 537 and not 538 as the apostates claim.

    scholar JW

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    HOW SWEET IT IS!

    God is in his heaven, and scholar (sic) and Alan F are battling..........it does not get any better than this.

    Go get em, Alan.

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