Was Jesus such a great guy after all? (page 2)

scout575

The Jesus of the gospels comes across as being as subject to mood swings as any other man. Sometimes he comes over as magnanimous, i.e Mark 8:2, 3; and other times he comes across as bad tempered, i.e Mark 8:33. He is certainly far from the paragon of all virtue that many Christians believe him to be. I know many people who are much better characters than the Jesus I read about in the gospels.

Narkissos

There are many "Jesuses" in the Gospels.

I personally have a fondness for the Markan character (the episode of the "Canaanite" woman in Matthew 15 reproduces in a softer way that of the "Syro-Phoenician" of Mark 7) which, to me, is kind of a tragi-comical antihero -- whether you read him as an average ill-tempered and prejudiced Galilean man overpowered by divine spirit or a god cramped in human form -- he is awkward from beginning to end, and most things happen to him rather than he masters them.

The Cynic-like provocative preacher of "Q" (common material of Matthew and Luke, the new Moses of Matthew, the compassionate prophet of Luke, or the heavenly mystagogue of John are completely different characters.

(LOL, I had not seen Leolaia's post...).

JamesThomas

My sense it is very healthy to allow ourselves to see that anthropomorphic deities are simply creations of our mind that thought customizes to it's current needs. This is perhaps the beginning of seeing that it's not necessary, and in fact foolish to reduce the Source of the universe down to a human image, or any image, object or thing.

Who told us -- besides some half-baked tribal writings -- that our Source is separate from LIFE itself? Or different from the consciousness which contains and beholds the entire known universe? Why do we need to shrink the divine down to a thing within the universe? Why not exalt it to what all universes exist within? Which then begs the question: Who/What am I, really?

j

Narkissos

Note also what Matthew omits from Mark:

Mark 7:24-30: "And from there he arose and went away to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And he entered a house, and would not have any one know it; yet he could not be hid. But immediately a woman, whose little daughter was possessed by an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell down at his feet. Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenecian by birth. And she begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter. And he said to her, 'Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.' But she answered him, 'Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs.' And he said to her, 'For this saying you may go your way; the demon has left your daughter.' And she went home, and found the child lying in bed, and the demon gone".

Matthew 15:21-28: "And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and cried, 'Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon.' But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, 'Send her away, for she is crying after us.' He answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' But she came and knealt before him, saying, 'Lord, help me.' And he answered, 'It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.' She said, 'Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table.' Then Jesus answered her, 'O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.' And her daughter was healed instantly".

What is left out is the expression of Jesus' original will (not to be noticed in "pagan" land) which is thwarted by circumstances, and the woman's wit ("this saying" instead of "your faith") causing the miracle he first didn't want to do. Btw there is no Lukan parallel: the episode is way too embarrassing for the kind, generous, pro-Gentile Jesus of Luke.

plmkrzy

He probably thought she had nice legs.

lovelylil

Hellrider,

good point. But the Jewish nation was only the "chosen" on, for lack of a better word because as a whole, they were the only ones who were seeking to know the true God of the Universe. That is, if you believe the bible account. I know some don't and that is their choice.

It was always Gods plan to save all mankind thru his son's ransom. Just that he started with the house of Isreal first but never did God exclude others from different nations if they wished to serve him. For instance we have Rahab and Job, niether were Isrealites. Job was an oriental yet it is said that he had more faith than anyone else on earth at the time.

In God's plan some one had to be first but it really doesn't matter in the end. Becuase all the nations will benefit in the future the same.

This is a good thread though, it really gets people to think. We Christians tend to be very exclusive in our view that only we are accepted by God right now. I think it is true that some of the writings of the Apostles, as Jews, could have also expressed this attitude and therefore the gospels could very well have been writen with this slant.

RubaDub

Ok, Ok.

But I bet he made great custom-made furniture.

And it would have been great to have him do our kitchen cabinets. The guy that made ours simply didn't go as good of a job as I expected for the price.

Rub a Dub

A Paduan

“It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs,” he said. 15:27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “Woman, your faith is great! Let what you want be done for you.” And her daughter was healed from that hour.
So ok, he helped her. But not until he had refused it once, and called her a dog. That sucks, Jesus

That's an extrapolation to you - jw style

I reckon she hung out with the dogs - might have been a 'fader'

peacefulpete

A number of variations of this basic story made their way in the texts of the Gospels, the 2 being discussed already, Jarius' daughter, the centurian's servant and probably others that I can't think of just now. All of them have many points of connection and seem rather clearly to be drawn from familiar Elisha miracles of 2 Kings 4 and 5. The writer of Luke is well aware of the link between those two miracle legends toward nonIsraelites and alone reminds the reader of them in 4:25-27 just before telling his Jesus versions.

kazar

Thanks, Leolaia. Good post. Hope you never leave this forum.

Was Jesus such a great guy after all?

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