by Noggin 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
"The truth has a certain ring about it."
Hi again Noggin.
It was a verbally expressed mantra. I don't know where it started. I'm happy that Narkissos is helping you out here. He's a very smart guy and does live in France. You can always private e mail him too.
Juni
Narkissos says it is accepted after a feeling comes that is supposedly from Jehovah. A confirmation. That was my experience in studying with them.
Narkissos responds:
Actually I meant that this can happen and is welcomed if it does, but it is not expected, and is not felt as something missing if it does not.
Noggin responds:
Okay. So that still fits with my experience. Those in the WTS knew I was Mormon. I told them that any Mormon converting from Mormonism to JW would likely need a spiritual manifestation to do so. I think that is why they answered the way that they did.
The bottom line that I am getting is that I am finding out that JW do not believe that the body of members need personal revelation to direct the affairs of their lives. That just seems so odd to me with my old Mormon background.
In Mormonism, one seeks personal revelation as to which job they should take, whom they should marry, what school/university they should attend. They are extended "callings" or jobs in the church and are encouraged to pray about the job and receive a "Yes" answer from God that he really does want you to serve the Mormon church in that capacity. They are encouraged to seek God's approval in every significant event. The "answers" from god are extremely feelings based.
The Jehovah's Witness does not pray to God over important items like this? I think that they do. In fact, I just searched the JW official web site and found this:
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2003/5/1/article_02.htm
"What would you like to ask God? How God answers prayers" which posits that the members ask, and the JW god responds.
In WTS, good feelings just ebb and flow and they aren't trumped up as the end all be all? It is almost, from what I gather, expected... "Of course we feel good here at church, this is God's true church". The truth, once one is emerged/enmeshed into the cult, is carte blanche accepted.
What about if one has serious doubts as a member? What if their doubts are so significant that they are considering leaving? What are they encouraged to do? Are they not encouraged to pray and seek another confirmation?
Noggin
The mormons do make a big thing about feelings. Unless you study with them you may not know whereas with the JWs its more about how doctrine is incorrect in the churches and we are right .
For JWs it is very much mind driven, they are constantly told that the heart is treacherous and not to be listened to.
It is common to hear that 4 things are necessary to keep faith, the PASS
Prayer
Association (attending meetings)
Service
Study
All four reinforce what the WTS says. You pray about being a better JW, listen to the theology at meeting, study it and go preaching about it.
A mentioned earlier, to get to the stage of indoctrination is just like any other cult. The initial contact or bible study is about the JW Kingdom. People want to believe that there is more to life. A JW tells the new recruit that they can live forever on paradise earth, with all current problems gone. The recruit is normally the type of person that wants to believe that. After a series of studies that show the JW seems to know their bible and can offer a nice loving way of life that offers solutions to the worlds problems some people get hooked. Once hooked they believe that the Governing Body is directed by God and not to be questioned, even as problems and inconsistencies arise.
Most people see the inconsistencies prior to joining and so never join. That is why the Internet is killing the WTS. A new recruit that gets on the Net to research the legitimacy of it all prior to being hooked and blindly accepting everything the GB says does not get sufficiently indoctrinated to give over their mental powers to the group.
Noggin,
I had a number of conversations with Mormon missionaries and have noticed their emphasis on "personal testimony". JWs are encouraged to pray about the same things, but the "answers" will only be validated as divine if they agree with the WT teachings.
They are to give "prayerful consideration" (you reminded me of this phrase which required a very long circumlocution to translate into French) to the choice of a marriage mate (i.e. a good JW, better if a MS, an elder, a pioneer or a Bethelite), the choice of a career (better no higher education, part-time job for pioneering, best full-time service), etc.
In case of doubt, prayers should bring the doubter in the right state of mind/heart (waiting on Jehovah, trusting the organisation). Any different response COULD NOT come from God.
The WT strictly controls God's answers to prayers...
What about if one has serious doubts as a member? What if their doubts are so significant that they are considering leaving? What are they encouraged to do? Are they not encouraged to pray and seek another confirmation
Noggin, good evening.
Narkissos answered it very well. If your answer is from God, it will parallel what the JW org. teaches. Because this IS God's organization. Actually you're caught in a "spiritual web".
If you are baptized and have significant doubts, you can bring it up. But watch out!! Your faith and integrity will be questioned. They will answer you according to what the WT Society teaches, but if you just aren't satisfied or continue to bring up doubts they will ask you to meet w/the body of elders. If you stand your ground and don't see things their way, they will awkwardly express that you are in line for disfellowshipment. Then they tell you that you will have (I believe 10 days) to basically change your mind about how you feel. If you don't do anything for those 10 days then they proceed to DF you. Your name is announced from the platform that you are no longer one of JWs. Then everyone including relatives are not to socialize w/you or greet you. Husbands/wives who are still JWs can no longer have spiritual conversation w/you. You are dog poop to all.
Does this help?
Juni
Thanks Narkisso and Juni
These are extremely insightful responses. I got much more than I bargained for in this shopping trip of thoughts.
Plowing on here... If one is facing DF, and has the ten day clock ticking, would he have an inclination to hit his knees in humble prayer to ask the god of JW to reassure him, or rectify his doubts?
In what form does this reassurance come (if it does)? Emotional epiphany?
Aside from that line of questioning:
Do you ever feel close to the god of JW during prayer? Warmth? An infusion of strength? Peace? If so, doesn't that qualify as spiritual guidance in the form of feelings? Don't be afraid to admit it happens in the WTS, it does not mean it was "true" any more than it means they were really great at manipulating you to get you to do what they wanted. I received this type of experience often in Mormonism. It's all man made, IMO.
Noggin
WHO SAID YOU DON'T GET ANYTHING FOR FREE??
Have to go to bed.
Juni
Leolaia: *clap* excellent post.
