Comments You Will Not Hear at the 5-14-06 WT Study (CHRISTIAN BAPTISM)

by blondie 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  heathen

  I don't know way they simply can't state an opinion but always use those buzz words . That is very strange . Jesus did say that unless you are born again you are not saved so this crap of we decide who and when is just plain wrong . There are accounts of people being baptized the day they hear the good news and not having to be brainwashed for six months for baptism . All right there in acts of apostles . I still don't think baptizing naked women was appropriate back then and having women parade around in swim suits is not appropriate today.
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  juni

  Thanks Blondie for your hard work.

  This study article sounds so familiar. I'm sure though that it's "chicken served in a different recipe" according to them.

  What lake have you been fishing?

  Juni
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  luna2

  I wonder what the schedule is for baptism articles. Guess putting it out there in the Spring is always good to get the sheep thinking about pressuring their kids or urging their studies to make plans for the Summer convention season.

  I hate how they target little kids with this stuff too. Its disgusting. What they'd really like is infant baptism just like evil Christendom...their numbers would go up significantly...they just haven't figured out how to new light that one yet. To my mind, there is very little difference between baptising a baby or a young child, neither of them knows what they are doing.

  Happy Mother's Day all.
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  Elsewhere

  I find it very interesting that they say the baptism "symbolizes ones dedication to Jehover". Basically this means that the dedication happens *before* the baptism and the actual baptism is a visible symbol for people to observe, not Jehover.

  And all this time I thought baptism was a cleaning ritual that "washed away sin".
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  blondie

  Thanks, Sally Sue.

  I’m glad you brought up a scripture. Misapplication is a technique the WTS uses often, quoting only the snippet they want to concentrate on. Actually, the real life Paul was commenting on to Timothy was eternal life in heaven ruling with Jesus, not living forever in paradise on earth. ™

  (1 Timothy 6:17-21) Give orders to those who are rich in the present system of things not to be high-minded, and to rest their hope, not on uncertain riches, but on God, who furnishes us all things richly for our enjoyment; 18

  to work at good, to be rich in fine works, to be liberal, ready to share, 19 safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, in order that they may get a firm hold on the real life. 20 O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called "knowledge." 21 For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith.. . .

  The WTS applies this (vss 17-19) to the materialism angle in most of its applications.

  As the (vss 20,21) notice how the Insight book applies it.

  ***

  it-1 p. 685 Education ***

  It strongly counsels against mental intercourse with those who do not believe God and his Word. (1Ti 6:20, 21)

  As you said, Paul was warning Timothy about fellow Christians (see vss 17-19) not people "who do not believe God and his word." In applying verse 20, the WTS brings up relating dubious experiences that cannot be verified. How many of the experiences in the WT publications or told on the platform can you "verify"?

  ***

  w03 9/15 p. 11 Spiritual Conversations Build Up ***

  On the other hand, we reject "the falsely called ‘knowledge,’" which gives only an appearance of truthfulness. (1 Timothy 6:20) And we avoid passing on gossip or relating dubious experiences that cannot be verified.

  ***

  w00 12/1 p. 30 Must You Believe It? ***

  The reason that Paul called such knowledge ‘false’ is that it lacked one crucial factor—a source or reference from God against which their theories could be tested.

  So where in the Bible is the teaching of the "generation of 1914" or "organ transplants are a disfellowshipping offense" or that "Jesus and God are the superior authorities of Romans 13" or that "the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected"? Were these "falsely called knowledge"?

  Thanks, Lady Liberty. Keep up the freedom movement.

  Thanks, Rubadub. Are you a masseur?

  Good point, Severus. "Evidently" the WTS thinks that STDs did not start until 1914 with the time of the end. (smile) They aren’t talking about the bird flu, are they?

  infectious or a potentially fatal disease

  Tell the PO so he can tell everyone else…they won’t out a pedophile but after a brother notified the PO he was HIV positive, everyone in that congregation knew. Some switched congregations, others would not use the restroom any more or let their children, others would not longer shake hands or hug him. Idiots!

  Thanks, Atlantis. You’ve helped me and others find information too.

  Hi, Merry,

  do the JW great crowded get John's baptism,

  I think per the WTS they get a watered down version of Christ’s baptism…1) They don’t have to die to receive their reward…millions now living will never die 2) they don’t become perfect instantly at death and receive immortality, they need 1,000 years to become perfect, be tested by Satan, then receive ‘everlasting life’ having to depend on God for air, food, water to continue living.

  "we are all born into sin" explains the WTS so children have sins to repent and turn around from. Of course, if they are only 7 or 8, mommy and daddy will still have the responsibility to discipline them and turn them from making more sins, not just the child itself. Imagine being 3 sisters around 30, and having a baptized 8 year old brother conducting field service, saying the prayer, making assignments.

  Thanks KW13. What information helps you?

  Good catch, virgochik.

  "We were alienated from Jehoopla before our baptism..." so, is an unbaptized publisher alienated from Jehoopla? What about an "approved associate?" How about a regular study? Double talk at it's finest.

  I used to ask what happens if the great tribulation breaks about before sincerely dedicated people could get baptized? I was told that God would time it so that everyone would be baptized………duh!

  Thanks FODN, it has been cold and wet and I am not that devoted to fishing yet. I have found some good places though to try; maybe I need hot chocolate with a brandy chaser.

  Heathen

  , when you are re-writing or adding to the Bible you have to use some CYA measures.

  I don't know way they simply can't state an opinion but always use those buzz words

  The WTS used this technique to building themselves an out with 1975. They used buzzwords like "appropriate."

  ***

  w80 3/15 p. 17 Choosing the Best Way of Life ***

  . With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

  Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God

  , 1966, said on pages 26-30: (Italics added)

  The time is fast drawing near for the reality that was foreshadowed by the Jubilee of liberty to be proclaimed throughout the earth to all mankind.... Most certainly the near future would be the most appropriate time for it. God's own written Word indicates that it is the appointed time for it.... In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E..... So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man's existence.

  How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! This would be most timely for mankind. It would also be most fitting on God's part, for, remember, mankind has yet ahead of it what the last book of the Holy Bible speaks of as the reign of Jesus Christ over earth for a thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ.... It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God

  for the reign of Jesus Christ, the "Lord of the sabbath," to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man's existence.

  http://members.aol.com/Beyondjw/1975.htm

  Hey Juni,

  This study article sounds so familiar

  There is nothing new under sun of the WT writing department. They have revolving subjects and can resort to cut and paste.

  Too cold to go fishing except for the diehards.

  Hi Luna2,

  If not every year, every other spring the WTS focuses on baptism. With the drop in baptisms and based on this article they are pushing for numbers this summer to post by August 2006 (end of the service year). Notice it is children, minors, and people who have associated for some time but are not baptized. Not a mention of getting out there and talking to non-JWs and converting them.

  Hi Elsewhere, did you party hearty? As to baptism washing away sins, my experience is that religions other than the WTS teach that. Here are a few quotes from the publications:

  ***

  it-1 p. 250 Baptism ***

  Peter answered: "Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit." (Ac 2:37, 38) Notice that Peter pointed out something new to them—that, not repentance and baptism in John’s baptism, but repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was necessary for forgiveness of sins. He did not say that baptism itself washed away sins. Peter knew that "the blood of Jesus [God’s] Son cleanses us from all sin." (1Jo 1:7)

  *** w85 12/1 pp. 6-7 Righteousness Before God—How? ***

  It is not baptism that washes away original sin, but it is Christ’s shed blood. (Romans 5:8, 9)

  ***

  w61 1/15 p. 39 Should Your Baby Be Baptized? ***

  Not that the baptismal water would itself wash away their sins; if that were the case they would have had to get rebaptized after every new sin.

  As to dedication, I always saw it as being like getting engaged and baptism like the wedding. The engagement was something between the woman and the man, the wedding included friends and family. Dedication is between you and God, baptism includes friends and family. To be valid I would think that only 2 other people need to be there as "witnesses." In Jesus’ baptism, it was God and John the Baptist.

  (((hugs)) from Blondie
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  BluesBrother

  I approached the article by trying to put myself in the mind of a 12 year old boy, raised "in the truth", fired with the enthusiasm of childhood, knowing only what The Borg had taught me. The world would, as far as I knew be ruled by Satan and my teachers be fools because they teach evolution.

  I read from this article that it is "a solemn agreement not to be taken lightly" but children evidently are able to do it because p8 says "The Scriptures give no age requirements for baptism" and my copy of "Young People Ask" says specifically

  yp

  chap. 39 p. 318 How Can I Get Close to God? ***

  "I think a lot of young people hesitate to get baptized," observed a youth named Robert. "They fear it’s a final step that they can’t back out of." True, one cannot back out of a dedication to God. (Compare Ecclesiastes 5:4.) But "if one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him"—baptized or unbaptized! (James 4:17) The issue is, Do you appreciate God’s friendship? Are you moved to want to serve him forever? Then do not let fear hinder you from proclaiming yourself a friend of God!

  Of course I am not scared, I say, Especially when today's article says in p 13 "Those who wish to do so will always be able to find excuses for evading their Christian responsibility"

  So I suppress any doubts as "weakness" and trust Jehovah to support me . After all p 18 says that it is only "Once ....we are baptized that we become part of a unique family", and I do so much want to belong. P 20 says that " "dedication and baptism offer the prospect of gaining a "firm hold hold on the real life - everlasting life in Gods new world.

  That settles it. I want so much to live forever, and have a lion as a pet.

  "Mum ! I want to be baptized.....

  So another Watchtower slave is created. Made from youthful idealism and ignorance.
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  JeffT

  I've mentioned this story before but this is a good place to do it again, the contrast is amazing. Our church has an outreach program to call on new people. I participated in it for awhile. We'd go out for an hour or so on Tuesday evening, and then meet back at the church for some fellowship. One night one of the teams brought back a man who had accepted Jesus and wanted to be baptized. The elder running the program took all of us down to the sanctuary, he was asked two questions: "Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?" and "Do you trust in him alone for salvation?" He said yes to both and was dunked, with the rest of us as witnesses.

  No six month study, no interrogation about what he believed, no dedication to our church, not even a statement that he planned on attending there. He proclaimed his Christianity, and wanted to be baptized. That was all that was needed.

  It is interesting to watch the gyrations the WTBS goes through to get around the biblical examples the cite, to what they actually do.
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  Bonnie_Clyde

  "Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?" and "Do you trust in him alone for salvation?"

  That sounds quite a bit like the questions the WT used to ask before 1985. I always felt that my dedication was to Jehovah and his son, Christ Jesus; never thought of it as to the Organization.

  When my daughter was age 14, my husband and I were building a house. My daughter's grades were suffering a little that year, so I asked an elderly pioneer sister in our congregation who was a former school teacher if she had any time to spend with my daughter to help her with her school work. She gladly accepted, and I didn't find out till a few weeks later that she was preparing her for the baptism questions because there was a circuit assembly coming up. I was concerned because I felt my daughter was immature and approached one of the elders to ask him to talk her out of it. He quickly told me I should be happy that she wanted to be baptized, that she could answer all the questions, and was ready. So much for parental authority!
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  A Paduan

  On hearing this being approved by the elders following examination of the record of their efforts and readiness as displayed by answers given in the knowledge of the ways and works of the watchtower society, for a period of not less than six months, including consideration of any ill reports that may have been given by their new friends , they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus jehovah via the watchtower society .
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  stillAwitness

  If you realize that you should terminate a particular study, discuss it with the householder in a kindly way. Let him know that you have counted it a privilege to share with him what the Bible says, but remind him that it is a six-month free study course that we offer. Now it is up to him to decide what he will do about what he has learned and to take the initiative to follow through (get baptized).-

  There's a 6 month period for bible students?? Very interesting!