I've been mulling over Noggin's story and how I experienced the same scenarios on my mission and I wanted to share the flip side to that story - the one where I was not deconverted at all. The curent religious crisis in my own life is also at a mature enough point to share some parts. Please note I want to use ths cathartically so excuse my dogmatism - I'm not preaching.
I came across many Pedro's, two in particular tested my missionary faith to the core. Now just to recap the mission experience; it was intense, it was undeniably spiritual and very focused. I was eating and breathing the whole thing for two years without the distractions of women, money, secular education, media or family responsibilities. One baptist minister rocked me back because despite all the above he believed more intensely than I did, I couldn't deny it and his scriptural knowledge was exquisite. The other faith shaker was the muslim old man who semingly tore a core bible doctrine apart and I was left in a discussion gasping for answers that my missionary companion was equally clueless about (Scriptures talked of the royal line coming through the carpenter Joseph but of course the logical blocker is that Joseph was never the father - the answer is obvious with a bit of thought and research but that's another story - it was then a huge flaw in my armoury of pat scripture answers.)
I've told this story here before in part but I need to focus on the thought process I went through. I couldn't understand why in both scenarios 'God' had let me down, His 'best' (forgive my seeming arrogance but if you don't believe you've got the best product you'd sell very little;) representative around. Why hadn't I received inspiration? Did God care so little for them that I couldn't say those words that would strike their hearts and fill them with a desire to join the LDS church? What was I missing - especially regarding the depth of belief? Then this, the biggest of all the questions, could I be wrong about some of what I taught? As you know the keystone of any religion is normally described as your chosen deity but in actuality its really belief itself, once your belief is shaken the whole mental structure gets shakey. This was different to my teenage crisis where I had doubted the entire faith this was more subtle and far more potentially damaging - it was doubting just a few key parts. Attacking a whole structure is much harder than just spending all your fears on a brick here and there and the danger never quite goes away as that loose mental brick can bring the structure down many years later.
Back to this turmoil (I'm treating them both as though they happened concurrently but they didn't - just makes it easier to explain.) Of course I did what every good missionary does, I got on my knees in prayer and I got my head in the scriptures. The scriptural challenge of the muslim was gone as soon as I knew the answer to his question and the feeling of relief was immense - I felt almost stupid to have actually prayed for the answer. The baptist minister however, cost me more and gained me much more. I made some key personal discoveries regarding the nature of my religion and what it wasn't. I came to the conclusion that simple desire was not good enough - simple telling someone that something was right didn't make it so (fairly obvious really but I found that I'd been doing that many times). Depth of feeling and belief was irrelevent if that faith and belief where built on incorrect information - again obvious but it meant that for me I couldn't just teach stuff that I felt strongly about based purely upon my depth of feeling, in other words I had to recheck my premises and replace intensity with simple (and for me ) provable truth. I guess I needed my Pedro's because I matured as a preacher, I feel I changed from an imparter of rhetoric to an exchanger of ideas - quite a revolution in my mission approach and style.
Fast forward to today, recently I shared how the greatest single person who had influenced my life had left the LDS faith and how that had rocked my to the core because I love that guy, this isn't just another aquaintence jumping ship this is watching the lead mountaineer fall past you and realising your attached to the same rope. Now I've also done my study of LDS history from Salamander letters through plural marriage, Dannites, Mountain Meadows, racial preaching , Zions bank, the redemption of Jackson county etc.. Enough to rock any member's faith and yet I still stand bloodied but more secure -as though all the weak points - the bits which non-believers use to flay you with have been purged. A little like how a creationist, by accepting evolution becomes less affected by evolutionists using carbon dating to disprove Adam - just isn't the point of contention it used to be.
Thus far I'm still LDS but I feel much humbler about that as I know more thoroughly than ever that I don't have anywhere near the amount of 'truth' I used to think I had, I don't therefore have as much to defend, I have much less to doubt and far fewer internal logical inconsistencies or risky areas of belief. I'm more fundamentalist (not in a literal 6 days for creation sense - just in a less sophisticated reading of the bible.)
Things I've ditched or downgraded (and in reality are part of a mini folklore I built up in my head without real warrant.):
The infallibility of leaders or their inerrancy (in particular Jospeh Smith). I now remember the stumbling , manslaughterer Moses and denying Peter.
That very little that my leaders say is direct from God - it was never meant to be - there would be no point in the scriptures if every decision was going to be drip fed down.
Good people and bad people are everywhere, there are no safe havens - just because someone seems well meaning isn't an excuse to believe what they testify to.
I can expect nothing from anyone else, I am responsible for my own life not my Church, God or best mates. If I receive answers from God it is a boon not a right. I have a brain and its designed to be good enough to work stuff out.
Jesus doesn't sit down and talk to my church leaders any more than angels pop in and guide missionaries. Historically it never happened (recorded in very rare circumstances) so its wrong to say it does now or to somehow expect it to.
Actions are all that counts - doctrine can go wiggle - if it smells, tastes and feels good, follow it but, if it just sounds good hold it at a length.
My belief is not based any more on having all the answers, just enough of them for me.
Just my ruminations. I feel that I'm still getting my answers to the questions I posed while a young missionary in prayer and I still need more. I'm also happy - I feel peaceful and excited about life and I wouldn't swop that feeling.
How a Baptist minister was responsible for strengthening me in Mormonism
by Qcmbr 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
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PaNiCAtTaCk
Everytime I was attacked by an educated person, and he pointed out all the problems with my beliefs as a witness, I would also get scared and grow stronger as a witness. I tried to do the same thing towards the end of my being a witness, I studied more, went in service more ect. I finally found that I could no longer be a part of the JW CULT. Hopefully you will also be freed from the binds of the MORMON CULT.
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mdb
The Mormon doctrines contradict the scriptures. I've talked to Mormons who do not want to discuss (or "argue") with me doctrine. Other than doctrine, what else is there to discuss? Jesus said, "How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matt 16:11,12). And in 1 Tim 4:16 it says, "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." Apparently doctrine is very important. If the Mormon church does not have the true doctrine, but "the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadduceed", then the Mormon church does not have the truth. There are a lot of errors in their doctrine, but let's look at one.
Who is God?
According to Mormon doctrine:
God in general: One of countless gods in existence. An exalted man from another world, who's name is Elohim, and who created the earth. He became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on the other world. He has a body of flesh and bones. (D&C 130: 22-23)
Elohim: The name of God the Father who lives on the planet Kolob (Pearl of Great Price – Book of Abraham 3:1-17).
Yahweh: The name of Jesus in the Old Testament.
Jesus: Literal offspring of God the Father. Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Ordained as the Christ in the pre-existent Grand Council before coming to earth.
** Note: the word elohim in the Hebrew language is a general word for god. It is the plural form of el. Elohim occurs 2606 times in the Old Testament Scriptures and in many instances is used in direct reference to yhwh.
Let’s take an example from the Scriptures and see how this works out.
In Hosea 12:2-5, God [elohim] is equated to the Angel. It is said that Jacob found Him in Bethel and that in Bethel “He spoke to us.” The Angel, who is said to be the elohim Jacob struggled with, is called the Lord God of hosts. If elohim is the Father and yhwh is Jesus, how does the phrase “the Lord God of hosts” make logical sense ( the Lord [yhwh] God [elohim] of hosts [sobeh] )? The only way it makes any sense is to say that the Lord [yhwh] (who is Jesus) is God [elohim] and is the Lord of hosts. The passage then says that the Lord [yhwh] is His memorable name.
The account of Jacob finding God in Bethel is found in Gen 31:11-16 and it is the Angel of God who spoke to Jacob in a dream. What did the Angel say? “I am the God [elohim] of Bethel. Then, concerning what the Angel of God spoke to Jacob, Rachel and Leah answered and said, whatever God [elohim] has said to you, do it.”
“The Lord [yhwh] also brings a charge against Judah,
And will punish Jacob according to his ways;
According to his deeds He will recompense him.
He took his brother by the heel in the womb,
And in his strength he struggled with God [elohim].
Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed;
He wept, and sought favor from Him.
He found Him in Bethel,
And there He spoke to us—
That is, the Lord [yhwh] God [elohim] of hosts.
The Lord [yhwh] is His memorable name.
~Hosea 12:2-5Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God [elohim] of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’ ”
Then Rachel and Leah answered and said to him, “Is there still any portion or inheritance for us in our father’s house? Are we not considered strangers by him? For he has sold us, and also completely consumed our money. For all these riches which God [elohim] has taken from our father are really ours and our children’s; now then, whatever God [elohim] has said to you, do it.”
~Gen 31:11-16Who is this Angel of God? The Angel of God spoke to Jacob, but it also says that God [elohim] is the One who spoke to Jacob and in the book of Hosea, it too says that the Lord God of hosts is the One who spoke. The Angel of God is the pre-incarnate Christ – who is God, the Lord God of hosts. Jacob physically wrestled with Him (“…struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel”) and was blessed by him. Later, Jacob says, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” The God that Jacob wrestled with, talked with, and saw face to face was yhwh and it was also the God [elohim] of Israel. In Exodus 33:20 it says concerning God , “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Yhwh is the name of God and is given to both Jesus and the Father throughout the Scriptures. A study in the Scriptures will prove this. Jacob had seen face to face the Angel of God (the Son) – the person of God that man can see without dying. Isaiah also saw His glory and his life was spared (Isaiah 6:1-5 ref.: Jn 12:41).
Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”
So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
~Gen 32:24-30The truth about God? Elohim is the plural form of the Hebrew word for god (el). Yhwh is one of the names given to God. He is also called the Mighty God, Almighty God, Lord of hosts, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Redeemer, Savior, I AM WHO I AM, among others. Jesus is the blessed eternal God, Savior, Redeemer, Lord of Lords, Emmanuel. He is the Son of Man, the Son of God, my Lord and my God – the only true God, not one of countless gods, not created but eternal as the Scriptures say.
God [elohim] said there are no other gods beside Him. He knows not one. If Jesus attained godhood, wouldn’t even his Father know that he was “a” god? Is not the Father all knowing?
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Noggin
Nicely told.
Yours and my vastly different experiences boils down to sort of an old rickety bridge parable. You looked for a way to cross safely over the bridge, I walked away from the perilous looking thing resolving that whatever was on the other side asking me to cross would evaporate when I got there regardless.
It appears to me that you might be employing the age old and flawed Pascal's Wager with respect to Mormonism. If you have 2 minutes, click on the link below that explains why Pascal's Wager is flawed.
~a sample snip from the link below:
The wager:
If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is ... you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that he is.
Pascal's wager sounds deceptively simple. Many a religious person finds such a call attractive: one only needs to believe without considering the evidence and one would immediately be in a better position than that of the non-believer. After all, they say, if I believe and then it turns out to be true I get to enjoy heavenly bliss; but if my belief turns out to be false, and there is no God, then when I die, I lose nothing. An atheist, the religious person may continue, if he turns out to be wrong will suffer an eternity of torment. If the atheist turns out to be right then it is only equal to the believer's "worst case." Obviously then, the believer will say, you must wager on the side of belief.
But Pascal's argument is seriously flawed...Quote: link:
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pascal.html
Incidentally, if you are wrong, you just flushed a lifetime down the dogma drain. On what basis do you think you are right? Your feelings. Or powerful spiritual experiences. Or verification that the fruit on the Mormon tree is "good". Are these items not found elsewhere in the non Mormon trees? What makes your experiences more true than these? Are you to say that a non theist does not experience powerful emotive feelings and experiences? Of course not. Do you realize that you are playing God Roulette? The chances that your god is the real god are slim to none. All other One and Only True Religions claim their god or dogma is the True Way. There are about 2500 different gods. That gives you about 1:2500 odds. If your god is not the true god, you will suffer the terrible doom prescribed by the other gods.For example, Islam. You dismiss that Islam is the True religion, correct? Well? What is the doom that awaits you who rejects Islam?
Qur’an 4:55-56
“Sufficient for them is Hell and the Flaming Fire! Lo! Those who disbelieve our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. "and
Qur'an 22:19-23
"These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve [in Islam], garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads... their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: 'Taste the doom of burning'. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."Call me Korihor, but, that's just crazy. There is not a devout Muslim on earth who fears the doom of not believing in the Jehovah's Witnesses, or Catholicism... or even Mormonism (non celestial kingdom inheritance... eternal damnation). About 1.7 billion Muslims "know" that they have the exclusive Truth pertaining to the God concept.
Last question, and probably the most important one. Can you see that you are maybe pursuing/defending Mormonism to the extent that you are because of probable geographical location? Had you been born in Tehran, you would be an ardent defender of Islam without a hint of worry about whether or not Mormonism was "true". All too often, we are willing to trade our life's work for unproven philosophical future states of being. It is a concept that should be seriously grappled with. And I don't buy into that Foreordination doctrine either. It is unproven and illogical.
Last point. Have your faith in Mormonism, just make sure your faith does not have you. You appear to be sufficiently grounded but I cannot tell if you (I don't make any claim to know you) have wrestled with the god concept or not. If there is a good argument for a lack of god, then that sort of takes care of the Mormon god altogether.
Noggin -
Kenneson
Qcmbr,
Are you not phased at all by the recent DNA tests that contradict the Book of Mormon? How have you resolved this issue? See "Bedrock of a Faith is Jolted. DNA tests contradict Mormon scripture. The church says the studies are being twisted to attack beliefs."
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-mormon16feb16,1,4709667.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
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mkr32208
Your a MORMON?
hahahahahaha I'm a scientologist!
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Double Edge
The other faith shaker was the muslim old man who semingly tore a core bible doctrine apart and I was left in a discussion gasping for answers that my missionary companion was equally clueless about (Scriptures talked of the royal line coming through the carpenter Joseph but of course the logical blocker is that Joseph was never the father - the answer is obvious with a bit of thought and research but that's another story -
Is the answer that Mary was also of the line of David? In fact, weren't Joseph and Mary cousins?
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mkr32208
In fact, weren't Joseph and Mary cousins?
No, brother and sister!
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Double Edge
In fact, weren't Joseph and Mary cousins?
No, brother and sister! -
Country Girl
The Mormons believe that the native North American Indians are the descendants of the two lost tribes of Israel. This has been debunked in modern genetic studies. Native Americans are descendants of Asians. This goes well with the earlier theory that the Berring Strait was frozen over and they walked over here thousands of years ago. It just goes to show the length of the Mormon denial in scientific DNA evidence that our native North Americans were descendants of Asian tribes. Of course, the Mormons say that DNA evidence is questionable and that this could not possibly be true. This just proves that a cult religion can brainwash a normally rational human being into believing whatever they want. Just like when I told my JW mother that DNA mitocondrial evidence shows that we all came from a woman in Central Africa.. she says the same thing the Mormons do. "No, DNA science is wrong. We KNOW where we came from."
Just like science has PROVED that the Marivingian rulers of France are NOT related to people in the village where Jesus came from, via the DaVinci theory.
All this does for me is repeatedly prove that the Bible has to be taken with a grain of salt.
DNA is pretty concrete with me.
CG