Bible Students, JW posters, and lurkers, please respond

by AuldSoul 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AuldSoul

  I wrote this to someone else, but I think this demonstrates perfectly why I was outraged when I first found out that Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that Jesus is the mediator for all mankind. It is true that they possess a different doctrine entirely, but to me the outrageous thing was that they do not actively teach any doctrine regarding Jesus mediatorship. This thread presents indisputable proof of that fact.

  In my opinion, it is very important to remember that religions do not tell you the harshest doctrines or the most difficult doctrines to accept during the initial indoctrination phase.

  Do you have a copy of Reasoning From the Scriptures? How about What Does the Bible Really Teach? If so, find where either of these books teaches that Jesus is the mediator for all mankind.

  (1) The word "mediator" appears exactly two times in the Reasoning book.

  *** rs p. 184 par. 7 Images ***
  1 Tim. 2:5, JB: “There is only one God, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus.” (There is no allowance here for others to serve in the role of mediator for the members of Christ’s congregation.)

  At first glance, this seems to support the Christian doctrine of mediatorship (although tucked away in a place no one would think to look for this teaching). However, Jehovah's Witnesses teach that "Christ's congregation" is made up of only 144,000. The "other sheep" (over 6 million people) benefit only by extension, through being associated to Christ's congregation. Jesus is not the mediator for the other sheep.

  Oddly, the verse cited doesn't say a single thing (even in context) about Christ's congregation. It says he is the mediator for mankind. The verse context specifies every sort of person, of every station in life. Even here, in a primary teaching aid, they directly change what the Scripture says to fit their doctrine.

  (2) The word "mediator" does not appear at all in the publication What Does the Bible Really Teach?, nor is the Scripture 1 Timothy 2:5 cited anywhere in that publication. Well, what does the Bible really teach?

  These are two primary teaching aids for Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide, even in areas where people know nothing about the Bible. The mediatorship of Christ for all mankind is a fundamental teaching of Christianity. The Bible directly states the doctrine, and reaffirms the concept in several different ways. But Jehovah's Witnesses don't actively teach it. Why?

  Because, the doctrine held by Jehovah's Witnesses regarding the mediatorship of Christ is in direct conflict with what the Scriptures state. The Governing Body knows this, therefore they choose not to actively teach the doctrine they currently hold regarding the mediatorship of Christ.

  I invite any active JW posters to offer an accounting for this remarkable absence.

  I invite Bible Students who are here researching the religion to question their Bible Study Conductor (or teacher) about this absence, or ask more questions here.

  I invite any lurkers who had never thought of this before to wonder how many other things about the doctrines of JWs you have never thought of before.

  For your convenience, here are the two rather obscure references (in brief) that clearly address the current doctrine on this issue:

  Watchtower August 15, 1989, pp. 30, 31, Question From Readers — "Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using 'mediator' in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind."

  Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) p. 10, par. 16 — "Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members."

  Neither of these publications were ever recommend as primary study publications for new Bible students, although Worldwide Security was used as the study publication for the Congregation Book Study at one time, from March 29 through August 30, 1987, and was offered door to door as lately as 1998.
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  lovelylil

  AuldSoul,

  good post. The reason they don't let you know Jesus is not your mediator up front is because for one, they will be admitting that by joining them, you will no longer be a Christian in any way, as he is the mediator for ALL true Christians. (meaning in the body of christ). Also, you would know they are trying to replace Jesus authority over Christians with the organization, thus making the org. your mediator and this would smack of what it is - An Apostasy. They bash the Catholic church by saying the Pope is in the position of Christ and they do exactly the same thing with the "governing body".

  This is an issue I was very upset about when I realized they taught this. In the ministry I always taught Jesus was the mediator of all Christians until I got corrected on it. You can bet your bottom dollar if they told me this up front, I NEVER would have gotten baptised. It shows how decieptful the WT org. truly is.

  Thanks for bringing out this very important point. I hope the JW lurkers come to their senses on this as if they stay in the WT, they will never be in the body of Christ and have his sacrifice cover their sins now. If they think they will be under divine protection somehow, they are sadly mistaken. And don't even get me started on the "not allowed to partake" at the memorial unless you are "anointed" thing. This whole teaching is again to keep you from Christ and keep a small group in control. It is truly sickening! Good luck with your thread, Lilly
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  dozy

  I asked my wife if she knew that Jesus wasn't the mediator of the Great Crowd & she said "Of course - all witnesses know that." , so it doesn't appear to be exactly a hidden teaching. I guess that JWs are more focused on Jesus as a ransom for their sins rather than a mediator.
• 

  AuldSoul

  dozy,

  My mother was baptized at age 8. She has been baptized for over 50 years. She didn't know when I told her last October. She said they never said that. I showed her in my personal copy of Worldwide Security.

  Your wife, like most of the JWs I know, apparently believes that everything she knows is known by every JW. That is, after all, part of the magic, isn't it—everyone teaching and believeing the same thing all over the whole world? But it is a fairy tale.

  If you are in the comfortable company of such august individuals as Paul Gillies, I sincerely doubt that you represent the average Sunday attendee.

  Why not make this a question on your "To Ask" list for the Saturday morning car group? Better yet, why not find a way to express your appreciation during a Watchtower study for the fact that you get to be associated by extension to those few remaining individuals who have Christ as their mediator? I say the "few remaining" because surely those who were raised since 1919 have no further need of mediation.

  You see, by focusing on ransom Jehovah's Witnesses miss the purpose of the sacrifice entirely. Romans includes the fact of ransom as part of the argument, but focuses on the reconciliation. That reconciliation requires a mediator. There is no ransom otherwise. The application of the ransom requires reconciliation through a mediator.

  I hope a light bulb goes off in your head when you read that last sentence.

  Ruth was born a Moabitess, but became a Jew—a Jew under the Covenant of Moses, its benefits and obligations were not applied to her by extension. They were applied to her. She reconciled herself to God through the mediator, Moses, though she was not born of Abraham's descendants. Think about the implications of that carefully, considering that she was an ancestress—along with another proselyte, Rahab—of Jesus Christ himself. Then consider whether the following statement is true or false:

  Was Moses the mediator between Jehovah God and mankind in general? No, he was the mediator between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the nation of their fleshly descendants.

  There is no room for ambiguity in the response. Either Moses was the mediator for anyone who chose to become a Jew or he was not. What do you say?

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  TheListener

  Ruth was born a Moabitess, but became a Jew—a Jew under the Covenant of Moses, its benefits and obligations were not applied to her by extension. They were applied to her. She reconciled herself to God through the mediator, Moses, though she was not born of Abraham's descendants. Think about the implications of that carefully, considering that she was an ancestress—along with another proselyte, Rahab—of Jesus Christ himself. Then consider whether the following statement is true or false:

  Was Moses the mediator between Jehovah God and mankind in general? No, he was the mediator between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the nation of their fleshly descendants.

  There is no room for ambiguity in the response. Either Moses was the mediator for anyone who chose to become a Jew or he was not. What do you say?

  Where is that quote from?

  If I understand correctly, anyone who put on the yoke of the law covenant would be constituted a fleshly Israelite. Therefore would be under the mediatorship of Moses. Those who merely associated with the Israelites and did not follow the entire law (meaning: circumcision) were not counted as fleshly Israelites and only received benefits as associates.

  The individual made the choice. Follow the mosaic law in its entirety or merely associate. It seems that the same logic should apply today. Apply the ransom sacrifice in your life by doing God's will (John 6:35-40) or merely associate with those who do. Either way you derive benefit but by doing God's will you have christ as your mediator and receive greater rewards.

  ???
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  lovelylil

  Dozy,

  I went into the Org. in 1993 and one of the points you are missing that Auldsoul is bringing out is that while studying with the Witnesses, none of the material they use for the initial indoctrination states that Jesus is not your mediator. I would not have been baptised if they taught this. I don't even remember it being mentioned regularly in the WTs. I can't speak for the years prior to 1993 but I do remember this fact being taught in the Wts, just prior to my leaving in 2003. So of course your wife would say she knows about this teaching. But, did she know PRIOR to her baptism is another question entirely.

  Does anyone out there have specific dates and articles as to when this teaching came about? I know it was not taught by Russell that Christ was not the mediator for all Christians and ALL of them in his day partook at the Lord's memorial, and the bible students today still ALL partake. If anyone has the specific infor. (I got rid of my WT stuff, now I am regretting it somewhat), can you please post it? thanks in advance.
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  peggy

  I have been inactive 4years. I fully believe that there will come a day that the congregtion of JW's will one day clean out the publishers cards and announce all inactive publishers as no longer one of Jehovahs Witnesses. Why am I inactive? I was baptized in 1974, I was raised with the belief that 1975 was the end of the system. It didn't happen. I stuck with my dedication, which at the time was a dedication to do Jehovahs will. I preached. I preached the 1914 doctrine, the blood doctrine, I even devoted myself to the full time work. I had nagging probems about the appointment of MS and elders as being an appointment of Jehovahs holy spirit. Then came the generation change, more doubt. Then the change in blood doctrine, more doubt. I think in the back of my head I was aware that Jesus was not my mediator. HONESTLY, that didn't affect me much. Why? As with most JWs, it is not about a relationship with Christ, it is about WORKS......period. Christ and spirituality are not a part of the Organization. The preaching work is what it is ALL about. Numbers. Being seen by our association of brothers, actively PREACHING and therefore worthy. I have been spiritually dead for many years.

  Peg
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  AuldSoul

  Listener,

  That quote was the from the same paragraph as this quote:

  Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) p. 10, par. 16 — "Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members."

  Here's the whole paragraph:

  Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) p. 10, par. 16 — "Just as the ancient nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with Jehovah God through the mediator Moses, so the nation of spiritual Israel, 'the Israel of God,' has a covenant relationship through a mediator. (Galatians 6:16) It is as the apostle Paul wrote to his Christian fellow worker: 'There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.' (1 Timothy 2:5) Was Moses the mediator between Jehovah God and mankind in general? No, he was the mediator between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the nation of their fleshly descendants. Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members. This spiritual nation is like a little flock of Jehovah’s sheeplike ones.—Romans 9:6; Revelation 7:4."

  The argument is completely built on the archetype/antitype model in both the Worldwide Security book and the Watchtower article. So, if the first can be proved false, the latter is automatically falsified. Proving that Moses was indeed considered the mediator for all mankind should be no more difficult than calling the local Jewish Temple listed in the Yellow Pages.

  But if that isn't enough for some, contemplating the descent of Christ from women who were (according to this paragraph) not under the law covenant...it should at the least give pause, don't you agree?

  lovelylil,

  I am not sure when that doctrine was first directly stated, but from the time the Jonadab class was recognized forward they have only "grabbed hold of the skirt of a Jew." That is, any benefits to themselves are by extension as a result of their association with the Jehu class (the body of Christ, Christ's congregation, the remnant, the Faithful and Discreet Slave, the little flock). Therefore, their benefitting from the New Covenant is contingent upon their continued association with the Jehu class and continued adherence to its directives. So, even when it was not directly stated in print it is easy to derive as obvious from an examination of the surrounding doctrine.

  The upshot of the early 1930s Jehu/Jonadab distinction is, and always has been, that Jehu becomes an intermediary through which Jonadab receives a commission and benefits though he has no right by birth. Since the Governing Body (called at the time "the Society") saw fit to place the remnant of 144,000 individuals in the intermediary role, in effect they "have seated themselves in the seat of the [greater] Moses" since that time. (Matthew 23:2)

  The Pharisees placed themselves as intermediaries instead of Moses, they claimed that heeding their requirements was necessary for a good relationship with God. The Governing Body does exactly the same thing.

  (((Peg)))
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  lovelylil

  Thanks Auldsoul,

  See I was not in during the 1980s to read that book. And at no time did the "elder" I study with tell me that was the case. When I first realized this was their belief, I was utterly shocked. And so was my hubby although at first he tried to justify it. I did not find out until AFTER I was baptised. Like you said, they do not make this teaching clear to people studying.

  Peg, I am sorry that you lost faith becuase of the Wt. that is why the tower is so evil. They are part of the same babylon the great that they preach against. They do strip people of their faith. I think the reason I survived faith intact is because I had a faith in God, Jesus and the bible going in. My hubby did not fair as well coming out but is doing better now. I have a friend who came out the same time I did and she feels like you do. One suggestion I would like to make is to get another bible, I like the New International version, and just read the NT - this will help you to know Jesus better and see how loving he was towards his followers. He is so different than the WT makes him seen. They only teach about a punishing Jehovah and Jesus not the loving God and Christ that they really are.

  If you ever need someone to "talk" to here is my email: [email protected] , or feel free to pm me. So sorry again to hear you have lost all your faith. (((((HUGS))))). You will be in my prayers, Lilly
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  AuldSoul

  Dozy,

  I guess that JWs are more focused on Jesus as a ransom for their sins rather than a mediator.

  This has been rattling around in my head trying to find something to connect with. It finally dawned on me that I agree with you. In my experience, most of the JWs I knew were fairly self-centered and self-absorbed. They focused on what was in it for them, there was quite a lot of attention paid to the rewards to come.

  They missed its purpose.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul