Bible Students, JW posters, and lurkers, please respond
by AuldSoul 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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truth.ceeker
AuldSoul,
I need some more information about your paragraph about the:
That reconciliation requires a mediator. There is no ransom otherwise. The application of the ransom requires reconciliation through a mediator.
I am having some discussions with my father, and mostly I need factual evidence in order to help him understand things. If I provide someone's reasoning, he will just point out that this is their "Opinion" and leave it at that. He is not JW and is also doing some spiritual seeking on his own.
I never knew this piece of information you are bringing out and I am surely going to ask my wife what she thinks of it.truth.ceeker
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Justitia Themis
Boy do I feel stupid! I have been a JW for 30+ years and never put this together. AuldSoul, I repeat again what I said weeks ago in a personal message to you. I appreciate your factual writing. I have to research this. I too see a problem with how to apply the ransom if there is no mediator.
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Big Tex
This has been rattling around in my head trying to find something to connect with. It finally dawned on me that I agree with you. In my experience, most of the JWs I knew were fairly self-centered and self-absorbed. They focused on what was in it for them, there was quite a lot of attention paid to the rewards to come.
They missed its purpose.
This makes sense if you look at the behavior from a psychological standpoint. A "doomsday" sect (one whose central core believes Armageddon will come at a future fixed point) is built for the short term. The core teachings will be used to motivate its members to sell the message and will usually be two-pronged. One will be fear, usually a harsh God who keeps track of any and all sins and this fear of a cruel, demanding Higher Power will be used to prod members into constantly doing more. Secondly will be the carrot of a knowledge/relationship with God that no one else has as well as an eventual payoff (one day that sadly will never come) that no one else on earth will have. As a result, a massive Smug Cloud is created and hangs over the members who feel morally superior to the Great Unwashed that are the rest of humanity. The attraction of Jehovah's Witnesses is a selfish desire of what one "gets". The sad thing is they never receive anything, and pay a heavy price for the illusion.
This is a very powerful tool used by these sects who are for all practical purposes little more than religious Amway-like organizations. And yes, sects like the Witnesses completely ignore the essence of Christianity, which is love. Love can only help people, not sell books and magazines so it is pushed aside.
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garybuss
It's salvation by approval of a book printing secular corporation. Jehovah's Witnesses is the perfect religion for the capitalist. It's a spiritual communism, salvation by employment. The salvation is achieved by work. All work benefits the corporation. It's really a beautiful scam.
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Lady Liberty
Dear AuldSoul,
When I first learned this was a teaching, I was shocked and angered!!! I had been raised in the organization and have been married for 21 years. So I am no babe, or stranger to this organization. However, this was news to me, even as a very active publisher. When I brought this to my mother-in-laws attention, she had the same reaction! And she too was raised a JW. She said, "There is no way anyone could convice me that Jesus is not my personal Mediator!" She was upset! So she swore she was going to tell her husband, and look into it. Well, the next time we talked about it she said she had done the research and I was right, the Society DOES teach that Jesus is the Mediator for the 144,000 ONLY. But he is our high Priest. I asked her,"What was the job of the High Priest in Bible times? She said, "Well, he was the go between Jehovah and the people". I said , "Exactly. Now what is a mediator? Is it not a go between? Just like in a court of law. Two parties may not be capable of speaking directly to one another for what ever the reason. A judge assigns a Mediator to mediate, or be a go between the two parties to come to an agreement. Now, how is the definition of a Mediator and a High Priest different? They are not! They both do the same thing. It is just a play on words, to pacify the great crowd, so they will buy into the fact that Jesus is not their personal Mediator!!" But she said to me, " But what does it matter, we are covered as long as we are in association with them." And that was it! Just like that she bought into it! But my reply to her was, "What does it MATTER??? Well, lets start off with it matters because that is NOT what the BIBLE teaches! That's what matters! And because Christ Jesus died for me and you and everyone else that has ever lived and eer will live! TO say that he is not my personal Mediator is undermining the very life he gave on our behalf! That is why it matters!!!!" It was absolutely AMAZING to see her go from being insulted by the fact that Jesus wasn't her Mediator, to accepting it just because the "I say so company", says so!!
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
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AuldSoul
truth.ceeker,
I don't mind posting articles of WT sources when people need them or posting short portions of Scripture, but the concept of lost relationship and reconciliation is throughout the whole Judeo-Christian canon. It would be hard for me to pinpoint anything more specific for you than the accounts as delivered by Moses of the lost relationship, as well as the treatment of the regained relationship and its nature found in Romans, Hebrews, and Galatians.
Despite scholarly argumentation over who wrote what or when, the texts nevertheless paint a fairly bold canvas of some beliefs that were held to be precious by some people at some point in time—at the very least.
If you would like to engage in a more in depth discussion of specific passages that you find or if you would like pointers toward some specific portions that I found subtantive in this context, I will happy to share them. Romans makes a most compelling argument for the view that Adam lost his "life" due to lost relationship (over a betrayal of trust), and that this is what Jesus came to restore through renewed relationship.
Betrayal of trust is seen as a common theme in mankind's fall from the grace of Gods in many, many cultures. In the case of Prometheus, the fall from grace even extended to one of the Gods. Although after Heracles ("Hercules" to the Romans) freed him he was permitted to return to "Mount Olympus" (an "unreachable" summit for any mortal human, which extended well beyond the physical peak) he was chained to his rock for eternity, or 30,000 years depending on who did the telling. Oddly enough, many of the Titans—deities of the same type as Prometheus—were eventually imprisoned in Tartarus as punishment for various crimes by the 12 Olympians. It is interesting that Peter notes Tartarus as the dwelling place of the fallen angels.
Whatever the case, Jesus is held out by Christianity as a savior, a Messiah (anointed...set aside for a special purpose), a redeemer (one who buys back)...according to Christianity, salvation is through the redemption, the ransom purchased something lost. "Life" is a benefit of the sacrifice, but not the purpose. Consider the purpose of the annual goat sacrifice for the sins of the nation, and its parallel. Did the goat sacrifice stand for life, or was it necessary to maintain a covenant (binding agreement) relationship? It is true that both Hebrews and Romans make clear that this sacrifice was even more and that life would result, but the purpose was no different from the archetypical goat in their opinion.
Romans 8:9-11 — However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in union with YOU, the body indeed is dead on account of sin, but the spirit is life on account of righteousness. 11 If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in YOU.
"...spirit is life..." and reconciliation is required for that life. Reconciliation through a mediator. Still, life is not the point or purpose, it is the union that is the purpose. For that, consider John 17 again, or John 4 (Samaritan woman at the well) or John 14-16 (the function of the promised spirit). I would enjoy reading your thoughts on this. It might have come out a bit disjointedly.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
Will Power
This is a great topic AuldSoul and the way you've presented it gets ya thinking.
A few years ago, as I witnessed the gradual indoctrination of my husband, I brought up this exact point.
He was adamant - that the bible said Jesus was his mediatior - and that yes, that is one thing he truly believed.
I challenged him to ask an elder, his mentor, and he said sure - but he knew that I was waaaaay off in my "accusation".
Well, a few days later, he realized that he hadn't understood the bible properly or something like that AND
what mattered was "If this was not from God it would fail" (canned response heard so many times I've forgotten the exact words lol)
Needless to say I was fast-tracked to the "outer limits" of his inner circle.
He was most certainly warned of the danger that lurked within the arms of his wife.
At that moment I knew in my soul that I'd never ever come across anything so ______________ .
(((((Auld Soul))))
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