Hi Bubble, i`m fine, it was nice to meet you two! Wonder how we can find out the exact amount? It would be very interesting, wouldn`t it?
How much is the Watchtower worth?
by dido 31 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Gamaliel
I have a feeling there is a lot of inaccurate information and guesswork involved in some of the numbers that get quoted. (And ideas about profit levels, stockholders, etc.) Newsday once ranked them high among NY corporations, but not based on the usual financial factors of other companies.
I think the Watchtower followers sometimes run as high as 1% of certain city populations and therefore they have access to a lot of human resources but not always as much as they might wish in monetary resources. But each member tends to give a percentage of voluntary support and monetary support that would have come from a more centralized fund in other organizations. Time is money in this sense, since the WT does not have to advertise its publications through expensive media outlets. Voluntary or partially voluntary professional work by lawyers, doctors, builders, press workers, etc, is also "money".
There is a certain amount of profit in the sales of the literature and a lot of property value around the world in land and buildings. The average value of Kingdom Halls alone in the US could be getting close to a million dollars apiece. That already puts them in the billion dollar range. There's another billion-plus in New York alone.
There is a certain amount of profit (or incentives for extra contributions) in the creation and financing of Kingdom Halls, Assembly Halls, Conventions themselves. I'm pretty sure that when contributions get raised at times of disasters, that the WT encourages that giving to be flexibly offered to the general fund rather than specific to the disaster.
But the WT probably does not keep large amounts in liquid assets. When Newsday looked at them, they probably raised some attention because they were relatively flush with bank assets and stock at the time. Accounts with cash are probably marked for legal funds (both realized and anticipated), property purchases, self-insurance, KH loans, etc. There is not likely any piles of excess stashed away as many people have imagined.
In my opinion they are probably a bit worried at present that the funds are kept with enough liquid assets for ease of operations. Selling a few places in Brooklyn, or consolidating into new buildings can provide a few million here and there and help them keep tabs on the current values of their property assets. But new growth in membership is more often from poorer countries at present, while it is getting more expensive to continue to run the business as they once did.
It's easy to imagine that this 0.1% of the world's population somehow represents 0.1% of the world's monetery assets, but it's nowhere close. That doesn't mean that they aren't sitting on a couple billion in property assets, but I think it's too easy to imagine an exaggerated "flow" of money. It's too easy to imagine a group of people sitting around enjoying material luxury because of this "flow". But the type of people who make it to the top in such types of organizations will never find it easy to divert any of these assets into personal luxuries. Most will be managed back into shared property or invested into expected growth. Without growth however they will have to begin cannibalizing their assets. This could always keep them going for an extra 50 years even with substantial loss of current members and new converts.
But the amassing of wealth even into shared facilities is not really in accord with their non-profit charter. I think that a lot of JWs would prefer to have someone pick them up in an old "church-bus" rather than have their story bragged about in some Yearbook that they walked 150 miles through African jungles and dangers of war just to get to the summer assembly.
Gamaliel -
Finally-Free
When I joined the cult we were selling the magazines for 20 cents each. Sales were low. A short time later the price was jacked up to 25 cents each. Apparently, this didn't go over very well and sales went down. We soon started giving them away for free. Next we discovered we couldn't even give most of them away so we started dumping them in laundromats. A laundromat owner once gave me shit for doing this, so I stopped and let them pile up for many years. I'm now mixing them in with my recycling every 2 weeks. I hide them under other stuff so the garbage man doesn't give me shit. So essentially, the Watchtower magazines themselves are worthless.
It's amazing how a corporation can become so wealthy by selling worthless trash. I'm in the wrong business.
W
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Gerard
Here's a useful collection of informative posts regarding WT finances:
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Mary
How much is the Watchtower worth?
30 pieces of silver. Isn't that the price of betrayal?
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dido
Gerard, thanks for the link, that`s great. Mary, that`s brill!!!
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greendawn
Gamaliel to cut a long story short the WTS is a super rich corporation that made its money by exploiting its members having them sell their publications without pay, and lets not forget the big donations that many made in money and property. The WTS knows how to demand.
They've got more than they care to know, and since their overheads are minimal (COs, bethel staff and missionary expenses, accountancy and legal work perhaps done by volunteeres?)and the local dubs pay for KH and assembly costs.
That is jehovah's loving and spiritual organisation and his chosen humble unselfish FDS. -
Gamaliel
greendawn,
You said:Gamaliel to cut a long story short the WTS is a super rich corporation that made its money by exploiting its members having them sell their publications without pay, and lets not forget the big donations that many made in money and property. The WTS knows how to demand.
I agree. But there is still a lot of mythology and mystery that makes people's imaginations run wild about the financial numbers that make it a "super rich corporation". I'd love to see the WT brought to a full accounting for ALL its practices as much as anyone. How this so-called charity spends and invests the money given by and exploited from gullible members is a huge problem. My focus for the present was just to point out that I've seen the numbers get exaggerated and I've seen these discussions turn into claims that are unsubstantiated. Most JWs, naturally, can only see that their Organization handles money efficiently and that it puts as much as possible back into branch property and support of those facilities.They've got more than they care to know, and since their overheads are minimal (COs, bethel staff and missionary expenses, accountancy and legal work perhaps done by volunteeres?)and the local dubs pay for KH and assembly costs.
I've often complained about this very issue (members selling their wares for free) but it's merely another proof of "efficiency" to the average JW. I think we should bring it up anyway, but just remember that if we are exaggerating the issue when it comes to real numbers, JWs will sense it and be given an easy excuse to ignore other related issues, like the fact that, as a "charity" they focus on the wrong things, as if selling mags and books really is a charity. And they have their so-called spiritual priorities screwed up and have done very little good in the world from the perspective of comparing other charities.
Many JWs know people at the very top of this WT organization personally. And many JWs have seen and personally know many of the so-called "stockholders". Most JWs, in fact, know how the people who control this money actually live, they have actually visited the most expensive buildings and have seen the "opulence". It's a bit much especially in some shared spaces, but not nearly as outrageous as I've seen it described. Most JWs know that personal luxury is not the driving force of the people who are at the top, nor even the people who make the decisions regarding the expenditures and investments of that money. They are actually driven, I think, by another kind of greed. The greed of "spiritual" exclusivity, power or control over others. They want to be the ones who have a personal part in the exclusive club of "the only ones who are right in the entire world". Being in an exclusive (privileged) position in the most exclusive "club" in the world provides them with an extra level of specialness that the average JW doesn't get, but still respects. That's their luxury, and they'd probably still have it if they squandered $1 billion on lost court cases involving blood doctrine or pedophilia coverups.
I bring up my objection to exaggerating the money issue because I honestly believe that the money issue will soon start to show as a serious problem on the low side before it shows up as much of a problem on the high side. By that I mean that they give evidence already of a small problem with money. A few building sales can cover them for a while. But if there's a shortfall of wealthy people bequeathing fortunes and the literature sales don't rise with costs, and converts keep slipping in the wealthier countries, then they'll keep downsizing until JWs themselves notice the problem.
Look carefully at the Canadian and British records posted in the set of financial links from the link above. Add to that the recent sales and consolidation at Brooklyn. Watch the downsizing already in progress. I don't doubt that their worldwide assets could be a few billion, but growth of that amount appears to me to be not sustainable. And there is no more expansion at present in financially self-supporting countries. Still, they could probably coast for many years cannibalizing what they have.
Cheers,
Gamaliel -
jwfacts
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/110135/1.ashx
The thread above contains the figures from the Australian annual report. Total Assets is $30 milllion, with $6 million sitting idly in the bank. This does not include the kingdom halls, which significantly increases the value. As a conservative estimate, 200 halls at $500,000 each is $100 million, so there is 130 million dollars worth for 60,000 publishers. ($2166 per publisher)
Very rough, but if you take the Australian per publisher figure times 6.6 million publishers that values the WTS at $14 Billion Dollars. Half the brothers live in 3rd world countries, but even at half the amount $7 Billon dollars (US$5.2) is still a healthy company.
What is more they don't have to do anything to earn revenue. Every meeting at every hall brothers donate, generally enough to cover hall costs plus provide a predetermined fixed amount each month to headquarters. Every convention they are encouraged to donate for the costs, with the surplus going to the headquarters. At death they leave their estates to the WTS headquarters as well.
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Gamaliel
jwfacts,
I saw that, and I'd think your extrapolation makes a lot of sense. I would have put them at only around 5.5 billion ($US) a couple of years ago and I'm surprised to see the amount go up for Australia instead of down last year. I had hoped they would have peaked two years ago and never saw an increase after that, but I haven't watched the numbers closely for a couple of years. The US HQ Branch consolidates a lot of extra value in the headquarters buildings and high KH values in the US, so it is possible if Australia is typical that you would still have to add an extra billion for US property.
I probably sound like I have a bigger issue with this than I really do. I work on the quarterly and annual reports of a company with about a trillion in assets and two billion in profits, so comparing with other corporations is not only fun, it's a small part of the job. The company I'm at is a worldwide financial company, but also has a large US charity division, and assets as varied as art collections, a technology outsourcing company in India, (a travel agency,) French vineyards and wineries, and other unlikely assets.
When I see claims about $202 Billion in US property alone (as I saw in your thread you linked to) I just worry about claims that can get ridiculous, and therefore ridiculed.
Cheers,
Gamaliel