I'm at a loss at how to get thru to my parents. I fear they will die before they will stop shunning me.

by cognisonance 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  cognisonance

  ToesUp,Thanks for the encouragement!

  ctrwtf, That's an interesting idea. The last time I talked along those lines it went like this (from one my previous links). I then gave up and changed the subject:

  
  

  Me: I don’t know how much time I have left; will you two be here 10 years from now? 15? 20? Since I’m not coming back to the religion it pains me to think I won’t be able to have a close relationship with either of you and to enjoy the little time together we have left.
  
  Mom: Well, you can do that, all you have to do is just return to Jehovah and we can be a family again.
  
  Me: But that’s the problem, I don’t believe the same things they do. I don’t believe in God. There is nothing for me to return to. Do you expect me to fake it and come back to the religion and lie to myself to deny myself of who I am and what I’ve come to learn? I’d be deceiving myself if I did that.
  
  Mom: We don’t want you to come back just for us, that would not be the right motive.
  
  Me: What am I supposed to do then? What if I was raised in an Amish family? If we all were Amish? If I left, I’d be shunned too, simply for not believing the same way you guys do and you also couldn’t talk to me. They too probably wouldn’t want their son or daughter to return just to be with them, but for them him/her to come back to God.
  
  Dad: That’s not the same thing. We’re God’s organization, they are false religion.
  
  Me: I guess what I’m trying to say is, why does religion have to come between parents and their children? It’s frustrating and painful not to have you two in my life.
  
  Mom: You do realize it’s hard for us to.
  
  Me: Yes I do, I know you are hurting, I’m hurting, and my friends are hurting. I am very distraught that everyone is in so much pain.
  
  Dad: Your friends know you care, we know you care.
  
  Me: Thanks Dad, but this all seems so unnecessary. This just needless pain and agonizing for all involved.
  
  Dad: That is true. It is needless. This is why if everyone did things Jehovah’s way we wouldn’t have to go thru such heartbreaking situations.
  
  Me: Dad, I know you aren’t going to like me saying this, but how is that not blaming the victim?
  
  Dad & Mom: You aren’t a victim.
  
  Dad: We did not leave you. We were always here for you. You are the one that left us by your choice of actions and attitude that lead to you being kicked out of the religion.
  
  Me: Dad, while I do regret that I left the religion for dishonorable reasons (adultery) that has nothing to do with my decision not to return. In fact, I wish I would have just left the religion by disassociating myself for disbelief instead. But that would not change how you view the situation would it?
  
  Dad: No, it wouldn’t
  
  Me: But to my point, how is this my fault? The fact is I cannot come back to the religion because I just don’t believe in it anymore.
  
  Mom: You keep saying religion. It isn’t religion you’ve turned your back on, it’s Jehovah. We just want you to come back. I pray to him every day that you will return.
  
  Me: Mom, I’m right here in front of you now. I want to be a part of your life, I want you to be a part of mine.
  
  Mom: I’m not saying I want you to return to me, I want you to return to Jehovah. That’s the only thing I want.
  
  Me: Mom, I know you think it is in my best interest to be part of this religion, that my life is on the line. I respect that. But I’m sure the Amish mother also prays form her child to return to God, and thus the Amish faith as well.
  
  Mom: I don’t want to argue with you.
  
  Me: Okay mom, I don’t want to either. I just feel like my family is being held ransom from me. If I want them to be in my life I have to return to this organization. I feel, from my perspective that I’m being extorted in a way.
  
  Dad: You do know we feel differently.
  
  Me: Yes, of course and that’s why I said this is how it makes me feel. I just don’t understand how this is loving for this rule to be in place where parents and children cannot spend time together simply because they don’t believe the same way (just as with the Amish).
  
  Dad: This isn’t a rule. This is what God tells us is the best thing to do. Again, the Amish are completely different than our situation.
  
  Me: I just bring that up because I recently watched the movie, “The Shunning,” about this Amish girl who left her faith, for good reasons unlike me mind you, but still was shunned and lost her family and friends. I found it very hard to watch and saw a lot of parallels.
  
  Mom: I would find that hard to watch too.
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  blondie

  I might add that your parents did meet with you in person the last time and seemed to share their caring with you.  Just keep the lines open, send a card when you have a fond memory of them, keep track if they need practical help.  I found that the elders in the congregations I went to didn't mind when df'd family took over those things...less for them to do.

  Family barriers are not uncommon for many other reasons than religious differences.  Remember they are watched by those in the congregation (or they feel they are) which creates fear to do what their true heart tells them.

  I think Steve Hassan has 2 books (3 now) that help people communicate with friends/family in high control groups (cults?). 

  Situations like this are like my vegetables in my garden.  I adapt my contact to what they need and given them time; can't hurry them.

  Blondie 
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  cognisonance

  It's hard to help when you don't know what they need help with. They got into a car accident, though no injuries other than being scared, and I wasn't aware of it until months later (my dad only told me when I came to pick up something). My brother, never officially DF'd is always in need of help (he went thru years of addiction and has trouble holding jobs among other problems). He is one avenue that I can assist my parents with. At times, me helping him puts me in a position to talk with my parents. For example, he crashed at my place for a few days and together we meet my Mom to help get my him some needed items. My mom was very cold and barely would talk or look at me. However, when it was time for me and my brother to leave, she turns to me and says, "I just have to..." and then gives me a hug with tears streaming down her face she says, "I love you so much!"
  
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  ToesUp

  That conversation is so frustrating. You just can't make these people see or open their eyes. This religion claims they do not break up families. Really? 
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  Oubliette

  "This is the most perfect, imperfect organization... It has to be the truth."

  This is of course a completely illogical statement. The conclusion in no way follows from the premise, which is itself flawed.

  As intelligent a person as your father maybe, he clearly succumbs to stubbornly holding on to his beliefs when anything threatens them.

  Although it probably will not help him see TTATT, you might find this book enlightening as to why otherwise smart people refuse to accept obvious truth:

  Mistakes Were Made (but not by me)
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  DesirousOfChange

  Since they will accept loopholes such as "necessary family business" you could convince them that at their age it is important that you be "in the loop" as to their health and daily affairs.

  There is also the Awake article that says persons should not be alienated from their family over a change in religion.  (Don't have the reference at hand right now. Search it -- it's from the "Slave".)

  Doc
  
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  Giordano

  Harsh shunning is coercion not a loving arrangement. After a couple of years when a person does not return and intends never to return ....what's the point? Isn't it a death sentence?

  Lable Licker's passages from the Shepherding the Flock book should be pointed out to your father. Send him a copy........ Tell him you got the info from an Elder who was concerned about your situation with your family. Ask him if its correct. Ask him what family business really means not the WT interpretation. Isn't Health, education, marriage, divorce, grandchildren, financial issues  family business? At least in the real world.

  A lot of Elder's would rather completely shun their child then lose their position.
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  cognisonance

  Ask him what family business really means not the WT interpretation. Isn't Health, education, marriage, divorce, grandchildren, financial issues  family business? At least in the real world.

  The only problem with that is I recall one of the last circuit assemblies I went to a bethel speaker said (paraphrased to the best of my memory): "The governing body gave us some consideration with regards talking to disfellowshipped family members realizing that we might need to attend to necessary family business at times. Many brothers and sisters take advantage of this categorizing normal conversation as 'necessarily family business.' The slave provided this provision as a courtesy but it isn't anywhere in the bible. Ultimately it's your relationship that is at stake with Jehovah and you should think hard about any contact you have with DF'd family." In more or less words he said it could be the GB was overstepping in providing that. He was trying to inspire fear.

  
  

  I don't know if they heard that talk or not, or if this admonition is endemic in the org. I don't know how open he'd be to redefining that definition. Worth a try perhaps.
  
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  LisaRose

  Sometimes peace comes with acceptance of things you cannot change. I doubt there is any way to reason with your parents, it's not about logic or reason, your parents are under cult mind control. You cannot counteract thirty years of indoctrination with a conversation or two. They have been trained to be fearful, on a very deep level, if challenged with different viewpoints, especially from former members. Fear like that is very powerful.

  Even if you could convince them,  I am not sure your parents would be better off, change is hard, especially when you are older, it's a way of life for them. I know that's hard, my mother died while she was shunning me, but I take comfort in the fact that she only did it because she felt she had to. 

  If you choose to reason with them, you might remind them of this, the July 2009 Awake p29:

  “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.” 

  Also, if you consider the scripture used to justify disfellowshipping,  you can see it actually is talking about something very different than what is practiced by the Jehovah's Witnesses. 

  I cor 5:11" actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one."

  Notice that it talks about someone who is a so-called brother. While that might have applied to you previously, it hardly applies now. It also says nothing about a judicial  committee, any formal announcement, or parents shunning children even when they are no longer a part of the congregation. It simply means that if you know a person who pretends to be a Christian, who does these things, you don't talk to them. 

  "12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?…"

  The intent was obviously to keep the congregation clean, so what purpose does it serve now? What point is there to shun someone who is not even in the congregation anymore? You minght tell them that that many people have committed suicide after being disfellowshipped, and that many people have been disfelowshipped even though they had done nothing wrong. Also many people have repented and attended meetings for months or years but were never reinstated. It is also evident that elders, or the family of elders are treated more eminently  that others. 

  You might remind them of the story of the prodigal son, who was warmly welcomed back, even after many year of a sinful life. His  didn't greet him with a judicial committee, he didn't interrogate him, he didn't judge him, he threw his arms around him and had a feast. Also remind them of the story of the  adulterous woman, where Jesus said that whoever is without sin should cast the first stone. 

  
  

  
  
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  label licker

  I have a sister who is 70 and all I asked was how can the holy spirit keep making mistakes and changing their doctrines. How can that be a helper directing us. She freaked out over the phone first admitting it was her fault for not remembering everything and that I was shaking her faith. She agrees it's rotten in her hall and every hall she's been in but she will wait on Jehovah. I haven't heard from her since and she does not email me. 

  This poor woman lives all alone living off of welfare which is $600.00 per month. Never married and gave her whole life as a special pioneer/pioneer to this filthy cult. Her health is really bad yet she doesn't realize that it will be us that looks after her when her elders tell her she's not their problem. She still accepts what ever we give her and is very thankful but on the other hand when there is a reno, there she is making trays of cabbage rolls and butter tarts for them which she cannot afford.

  For sure it's a cult!!!!! I hope that you will have some time left with them when it's time for the org to dump them on to who ever will look after them and hopefully it will be you:) Being patient is all you can do for now.

  (((HUGS)))