Was Eve Perfect? (page 2)

A Paduan

- to the serpent, "Because you have done this...... - to Adam he said, "Because you have - not so with Eve; there's no 'because you..'

- Eve is soul - and vulnerable, submitted to her spirit / husband - the two are one flesh (for you have had five husbands, and the one you live with now is not your husband)

- but this time there was a different spirit talking (serpent)

- there is what appears as punishment, but it is relation to her 'marriage' and her husband
in pain you shall bring forth children (works), yet your desire shall be for your husband

yet as Paul says, if her husband dies she is free from that law

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The soul is to be cared for - beautiful

MidwichCuckoo

According to Dubists, mankind has existed for 7000 -ish (maybe 7031, lol) years. Adam lived for 930 - that's nearly one seventh of History... . .you'd think HE'D have written something down...ah just googled...

The First Book of Adam and Eve
The Second Book of Adam and Eve

LittleToe

Paduan:
You used to be so eloquent. What happened, that you should start writing in such a terse and disjointed manner? I can see where you're going with the thoughts, though I disagree with your soul/spirit distinction (see http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/81048/1.ashx), but I wonder how many would pick up the thread of what you're saying.

A Paduan

Read it again, I'm watching TV actually - a bit distracted

A Paduan

I got this from that thread

Gen.1:24 describes animals as being living souls.

Gen.2:7 describes man as being created differently, in that God breathed spirit (Ruach) into man.
Hence the body contains the soul, and the soul the spirit.

I understand that Rabbinical teaching has it that the soul consists of the mind, emotion and will, which animals also have to a greater or lesser degree, and which are usually engaged in that order, to progress thought through to action..
When Adam sinned his spirit [died/was broken] and so he became mere flesh, an intelligent animal.

He is [reborn / resurrected / reconnected to the divine] when the spirit enters in.

At this point a battle ensues between flesh and spirit, and the spirit can be "quenched".
To me, this made a little more sense of the Westminster Catechism's claim that Jesus (as spirit) took on a true body and a reasonable soul.

I think I see how you disagree, but alas, I diverge

I think I agree that the spirit dies through sin, but it remains for the soul to understand the spirit is not alive - for the knowledge by natural law - different laws provide for differing opinions of what sin is

For me, soul is essence, what makes you different - that you are what you are - like you say, what kind of animal you are

I think the body has the spirit and the soul, not in the soul (not all the time - how many husbands are in their wife the whole time), so if the spirit dies there is more than mere flesh - there is a widow Together they live in a house, the body, but one can live there - devoid of spirit, the widow - devoid of soul, the jw?

Narkissos

As PP said the concepts of "perfection" and "sin" are both foreign to the Eden narrative. But while the story is later interpreted in terms of "sin" (e.g. Romans 5), never in the Bible is anything like "perfection" ascribed to either Adam and Eve, or even to Christ in a sort of "biological" way as the WT has it. This is an anachronistic notion from the 19th century, giving a pseudo-scientifical ring to the classical doctrine of "original sin" -- calling it "imperfection," making it look mechanistic and genetical (the "mould" illustration). (Btw it might be interesting to research the history of this notion upstream of Russell & Co.)

As far as the Bible is concerned, the terms which come the closest to our notion of perfection are mostly used in a moral, not biological way. In the OT, for instance, Job is called tam, "perfect, blameless" and he is not alone (same word in 8:20; 9:20ff; Psalm 37:37; 64:4; Proverbs 29:10). In the NT, Matthew (5:48; 19:21) requires "perfection" (teleiotès, teleios) from the disciples, now, and Hebrews, in a more technical (priestly) way, speaks of Christ's "perfection," not as something he would naturally (or supernaturally) have from birth, but as something he acquired through suffering and death (2:10; 5:9; 7:28) -- something not limited to him (10:14; 12:2,23).

The reasoning goes that Eve did not have full knowledge like Adam did, so when she took the fruit, she did so in that context and so, was not perfect, as Adam was.

This is funny when you read the story. None of them had "knowledge" prior to eating the fruit -- Eve got it first.

moggy lover

It is true that the Bible does not detail the biological condition of Adam and Eve at their creation. We do know that they were without sin, so one can suppose that they were in a sense "perfect" Interestingly, the Bible also does not describe their biological condition after they had sinned either To the Bible, the important thing was that they were sinners having a severed relationship with their Creator and not whether they were imperfect or otherwise.

By stressing their "perfection/imperfection" the WTS proceeds to impose itself into the authority of the Creator, affirming that neither Adam or Eve are available for the redemption that is in Christ. Hence no resurrection for them.

No human being, or group of human beings acting as a single unit can claim, or seize without authority such a blasphemous position. The Bible clearly says that Christ died for all and that it only requires a genuine act of repentance to benefit from this power of redemption. Did they repent? Dunno. But I would rather conclude that they would have, which means, knowing my God, that he would welcome them back as His children gladly.

Cheers

peacefulpete

Narkissos Thanks for clarifying.

freetosee

Reading the account in Genesis I get the impression Eve was much wiser than Adam. She interpreted god’s prohibition ‘not to eat’ further and told the serpent about ‘not to touch’. In her conversation with the serpent it appears that Adam was standing right next to Eve. Eve did all the talking and when she reached Adam the fruit he obediently eat. Adam was just the bystander and blamed Eve for being more responsible. And in comparison Eve received heavier judgment.

“ And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.” (Genesis 3:6 KJV)

freetosee

Sunnygal41

Where does the bible state that Adam or Eve were "perfect"?
Allegedly after their creation it was all declared "very good", but what does that mean?

Yes, my thought, also, LT. But, since this was a JW discusssing this with other JW's we know what they are taught..........they are all insisting this one is wrong, and they are right...........I told the person I'd ask this forum to see what everyone on here said.

Was Eve Perfect?

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