Looking for definitive answers . . .HELP

by patio34 27 Replies latest jw friends

patio34

Hi all,
One comment I hear from my JW son a lot is that "the organization (capital O!) is made up of imperfect men, so they make mistakes." What are some answers to that?
Pat
Introspection

Ask him how he reconciles that with where the gospel says you'll know them by their fruitage, and of course there's plenty of that. (evidently Jesus didn't buy into the "they're imperfect" excuse - when has he said anything remotely like that?) Actually, I bet you can find a lot of things that apply just flipping through those four books.
expatbrit

1)Isn't God's holy spirit powerful enough to ensure that his representatives on Earth don't make serious mistakes?
2)Why didn't CT Russell and the governing body apply this reasoning before leaving their previous religious affiliations?
Expatbrit
JanH

Pat,
Well, since they do not accept that excuse from all other religions, why should we accept it for theirs?
One could also ask: is there any transgression or error that would be so serious that this excuse no longer holds?
- Jan
--
"Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
Introspection

Just what I had in mind Jan.
I thought there was another scripture that has a wording to the effect of "using undeserved kindness as an excuse for loose conduct", unfortunately I misplaced my WTLIB CD. But this is close:
"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgement and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?" -Heb 10:26-29
Of course, the potential problem with using this verse is the willfulness aspect, it's always hard to prove intent. I bet there are those out there with good evidence to that effect though.. Anyways, here's another piece of goody: You know the scripture about first extracting the rafter from your own eye then the straw from your brothers eye right? Tie that in with child molestation and something like wearing a beard. (that one is at Matt. 7:1-5)
neyank

Hi patio,
One thing you can ask your son is,
If the Orginization is made up of imperfect men and they make mystakes,
does that mean that you don't have to believe what they say?
And if you don't believe a certain teaching, does that mean that you can tell them so
without having to worry if they will take action against you?
And one more question that you can ask is,
If they are imperfect,does that mean that the Orginization can be wrong
about them being Gods chosen orginization?
If you ask him these questions and he answers,
please let us know what his answers are.
neyank
Seeker

patio, this is one of the hardest things to answer because it's such a slippery topic. Let me demonstrate how a typical conversation will go on this subject, and perhaps some of the points I bring out may prove helpful:
Me: Why do you believe JWs have the truth?
JW: Because Jehovah uses our organization, and we see evidence of this.
Me: How does Jehovah use your organization?
JW: He directs the efforts of the GB.
Me: He inspires them, you mean?
JW: No, not inspires, He directs them.
Me: Isn't that the same thing?
JW: No, inspire would me He implants thoughts in their heads. Directs means He nudges them with His spirit to find the right scriptures at the right time.
Me: So when the GB writes something, it isn't coming directly from Jehovah?
JW: No, humans write it, but Jehovah directs it.
Me: How do you explain mistakes then? Did Jehovah make a mistake?
JW: Oh no, never!
Me: So did He mislead the GB?
JW: Oh no, never!
Me: So who made the mistake?
JW: The GB, as imperfect humans.
Me: I thought Jehovah was directing them?
JW: He is, but He doesn't force them, merely nudges them in the right direction.
Me: So if they make a mistake, it means they went slightly off-course and Jehovah allowed it?
JW: Uh, yeah, right. But Jehovah always corrects them in due time.
Me: What if someone corrects the GB in the meantime, with correct information?
JW: That would be wrong, because it would mean they are running ahead of God.
Me: So sometimes the GB is teaching wrong things, but we are supposed to just go along with it since that is God's will?
JW: Right. Loyalty counts.
Me: So sometimes you are taught things that do NOT come from God? But God allows you to think that they DID come from Him even though they didn't?
JW: Uh, well, no, it always is directed by God...
Me: But later the teaching is revoked, so while it was believed it wasn't really from God, but from imperfect humans who went on the wrong track?
JW: Not 'revoked,' more like the light got brighter.
Me: What about cases where the teaching really was revoked, not just changed.
JW: That never happens.
Me: Sure it does. What about alternative civilian service. Russell had the right idea (the current idea), then Rutherford changed it to something the "Bible doesn't teach" (according to the most recent WT on the subject), and then in the 1990s it was changed right back to what Russell said.
JW: Uh, I'll have to research that...
Me: Go ahead. And then realize that for decades, according to the process you said occurs, Jehovah allowed the GB to teach something that wasn't in the Bible, causing thousands of young men all over the world to go to jail rather than risk the threat of being disfellowshipped for something the Bible never taught. That's what you are implying, right?
JW: Uh, I don't think so.
Me: Sure, if you posit that the organization is run by imperfect humans, but they are 'directed' by Jehovah in the right general direction, then it means sometimes they go off-track and teach things that "aren't in the Bible." You say Jehovah allows that for a time, but eventually corrects it. So all those decades of having young brothers go to prison rather than accept alternative civilian service was really Jehovah's plan all along.
JW: Oh no, that was just mistakes humans made.
Me: But Jehovah allowed it, right?
JW: Right.
Me: And if you said at the time that the teaching wasn't actually in the Bible, you would have been disfellowshipped, right?
JW: Right!
Me: Because it meant you weren't loyally waiting on Jehovah to fix things, right?
JW: Right!
Me: So that means it wasn't yet time for Jehovah to fix things, right?
JW: Right!
Me: Therefore Jehovah intended for those young men to go to prison over an issue that wasn't in the Bible.
JW: Uh, no, He allowed a mistaken idea to take hold among imperfect humans.
Me: And then enforced that mistake under threat of disfellowshipping.
JW: Uh, yeah....
Me: So it means it was Jehovah's will that young men go to prison for an idea that wasn't in the Bible at all, but a mistake humans came up with, and so Jehovah enforced the wrong idea rather than correct the GB.
JW: Um...
Me: And where in the Bible can we find a similar example of Jehovah enforcing mistaken ideas rather than correcting them among His people?
JW: Uh, I'll have to research that...
etc. It's a slippery topic, and one you have to go in circles on before a JW will see the silliness of it all. I hope the above dialogue gives some ideas.
Introspection

Found that other scripture, it's Jude 4.
It did occur to me that technically, they're using imperfection rather than the undeserved kindness/forgiveness as an excuse. But then you can go back to the individual. "Oh, well what if a person commits these acts of transgression (insert whatever you think would be most appealing to him) continuously and blamed it on imperfection? Well, people get disfellowshipped don't they? So why would it be any different with God? Wouldn't God be disgusted enough with an organization that he'd cut it off too?"
Another point to go along with that, perhaps as a potential response to the idea that the organization is kept clean by disfellowshipping is that goes back to the fruitage. Just why would God's organization have to cut such huge numbers out of it's ranks? If they are better people with the holy spirit wouldn't you expect people to have higher standards? Note that this is very different from the behavioral approach, where if you do something you get booted. You can get into the scriptures that talks about looking at a woman with lust as already having committed adultery etc. but the idea is simple. You're not supposed to achieve a level of moral excellence by kicking out those who are not acceptable, God's spirit is supposed to change those people for the better. So, if they're having to DF people left and right, it shows that it's "a form of godly devition proving false to it's power" (2 Tim 3:5) And of course, we have those numbers right from the horses mouth.
Perhaps you can end with something like: "The issue is not whether or not you can convince me or yourself that it's excusable this way, it's whether God will excuse the organization."
What do you guys think, should we write a "Reasoning with the Witnesses" book?
Vitameatavegamin

I have recently begun to think that when a JW makes that remark about being " imperfect " , it really is a cop-out. I have had Elders make some of the most assinine mistakes, I am talking brainless decisions, and been told, " well, they are imperfect ". They always say this to shift the blame from themselves. WE are always the ones who need the attitude adjustment, not the society. Case in point: I asked an Elder a few years back what recourse do Witnesses have if they have a complaint against an Elder or maybe a complaint about a Judicial Committee, etc. I asked about calling the Society. This Elder proceeded to tell me that if they get a call from the society after recieving a complaint, all the elders have to do is tell them that the situation is being handled and the society will not question the matter further!! Talk about no way out. How could you possibly win when there is no responsiblity on the part of the local elders and the society! Who can you go to to get results? It seems there is no one. Again, WE have to change our attitudes. WE are viewing things wrong. WE need to rely on Jehovah. WE need to realize our brothers are imperfect. Can you see the message being sent here?? No one takes any responsibility in the matter. Kind of like passing the buck.
This has just been my experience- Thanks!
waiting

Hi Patio!
We just had lunch with jw family - and sure 'nuf! "Well, the organization is made up of imperfect men, but I know what's right, and I'm going to stay in Jehovah's organization." By 4 adults simultaneously!!!!!!! Oh, and lots of heads bobbing in agreement, "uh-huhs, yes sir."
They had just seen a local preacher go by, and naturally, were talking quite negatively about him, after they said hello and he left, when my husband brought up the point that "all organizations have flaws." Of course, that's when we got our head bobbin' discourse.
And then......with appropriately squinted eyes, the elder across from us says....."that sounds like something an apostate would say."
That's when I appropriately pinched my husband's leg to hush up. It's infuriating that we feel that we must be tactfully quiet so that we don't lose our families and *some* jw's can be so rude (there was more insinuations and discussion following.)
I'll reread this this thread ---- thanks for starting it. I've been fussin' at my husband for over an hour now.
Call ya later. waiting
ps: The above is not a secret society of friends message. She's my Real Sister (and I like her.)

Looking for definitive answers . . .HELP

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