Freedom, Free speech, Censorship, Religion and Tight Pants

by Simon 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Simon
    Simon
    However, in the USA, Internet sites do not enjoy the same kind of freedom that the Media does. This means that the owner of a site is vulnerable. And that is why posters need to understand that there is a difference between freedom of the press and posting something on the internet. The internet is not the media.

    Actually, everyone is responsible for what they post, not me. In the same way that if you post death threats to someone on facebook the police will come and kick your door in, not Mark Zuckerberg's. Internet sites are more like the post office in that sense - delivering the message, not necessarily authoring it.

  • Brokeback Watchtower
    Brokeback Watchtower
    Knowing the reality may help us focus our message and efforts a little better so that we don't squander our limited time and energy though.

    Agreed. But reality is so hard to reach. None the less we need to sharpen our focus on what is truly important and what is just minutia. If you want to slow this cult down you need to sort out the trivia and home in on the the most vital, which takes quite a bit of introspection to avoid bias and wishful thinking, which I am guilty of.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    Simon, I see that you understand the difference between freedom of the press and posting something on the internet.
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    But actually, I was referring to personal injury not to criminal conduct. Threatening someone is a crime and such communication is not protected by freedom of expression in the USA.
  • Simon
    Simon
    If you want to slow this cult down you need to sort out the trivia and home in on the the most vital, which takes quite a bit of introspection to avoid bias and wishful thinking

    I actually started thinking about this after watching the ex-Mormon videos. I found myself looking at their message and approach and it seemed less angry and not so much focused on "destroying Mormonism" and more concerned with educating and sharing their experience. Because of that it seemed so much more professional and powerful.

    It struck me that the few messages that were about trying to bring down the church seemed laughable to me as an outsider. I mean, I know the internet gives everyone a voice but it's a worldwide organization with millions of members, lots of money, temples coming out of the wazoo. Hey, I love watching Rocky and cheering for the underdog but at some point you just shake your head and think "are they mad?".

    And I wondered what people would make of us ....

    Again, don't get me wrong - this is not meant to be critical of the majority of great stuff that many people work hard on to educate and inform. It really is professional and raises awareness. I just wish we'd drop some of the hyperbole and attempts to pin everything on them. Heck why not claim they assassinated JFK if we're going to do that? LOL

    The rest was genuine thoughts about the implications of freedom and freedom of speech and how it impacts and is impacted by religion.

  • steve2
    steve2

    I think the organization is no better or for that matter, no worse than untold numbers of other religious groups.

    That is a far cry from saying, "Therefore JWs are perfectly fine and we should all go home and chill out".

    I find it haughty at best and downright silly at worst when internet groups adopt an attitude of "we're gonna expose JWs and force internal change" -JWN is a refreshing exception.

    By contrast, AAWA comes perilously close to pomposity in its dead-serious but silly invitation for the GB to meet with them and/or pushing hard to shame or corner the organisation into stopping its practice of shunning. It creates a false moral high ground - which is rich coming from a bunch of former Witnesses who were in an organization that turned taking the moral high ground into an art form.

    Remember too the sheer unbalancing intensity of Stephen (?) Unthank's vow to bring the Watchtower to account through secular Courts. He said he wanted to see the organization stripped of its power and authority and demanded via unintentionally hilarious court documents that specificslly-named GB members were required to publically apologize.

    Unthank would hate the connection, but his purple-prose revealed an unconscious imitation of Joe Rutherford's 1920s and 30s fire and brimstone denunciations of worldly governments and the churches of Christendom.

    As for Unthank, the hubristic denunciations met with an almighty secular yawn of indifference and - for the Witnesses - a sense of moral victory. One more persecution safely navigated with Jehvah's loving protection.

    The irony, though, breaks the yawn: A solo nutter draws attention to a group of nutters by acting nuttier than they do. Oops. We expose our trouble moving forward by falling back on the tricks of the trade we claim to have risen above.

    And the wider public give it a second or two - if that.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    I once saw a statue of a man with his legs and arms fully stretched out in a big jumping jack pose inside a sphere or bubble. The caption said, "Within the confines of civility I am free". I take that as people are free to do good, but if you are doing harm to others, then that freedom has hit it's limit.

    The WT religion should NOT be free to teach shunning and breaking up families. Freedom of religion when not hurting anybody (many do charity, food banks, and hope, etc) but when going extremist like WT and doing harm, then those freedoms need to be removed.

  • Simon
    Simon
    The WT religion should NOT be free to teach shunning and breaking up families. Freedom of religion when not hurting anybody (many do charity, food banks, and hope, etc) but when going extremist like WT and doing harm, then those freedoms need to be removed

    Please think about what you have said for a moment and then explain how you imagine this would work in practice when it is a religious belief (and not one limited to JWs).

    How and why would any government ban the ability of this one group to follow this one behavior vs other groups and other beliefs?

    Tell us how it would be enforced - would a government official accompany you to someone's house and command them to talk to you?

    What is the point of demanding something if it would be utterly and absolutely impossible to legislate?

    We have to be pragmatic - how would a court decide what was hurting vs "protecting the congregation" as the WTS would claim?

    We know the answers from our point of view but that is irrelevant if you are trying to sell it to someone else.

    Do JWs have a higher or lower rate of family break-up for instance vs the general population as you claim above?

    I am playing devils advocate here (ha, pun intended).

  • steve2
    steve2

    The WT religion should NOT be free to teach shunning and breaking up families. Freedom of religion when not hurting anybody (many do charity, food banks, and hope, etc) but when going extremist like WT and doing harm, then those freedoms need to be removed

    Love or hate the organization, it has a perfect right to teach shunning. The suggestion that a religious organization should be compelled not to do so requires a virtual police state to enforce it. As if the police did not have enough vital work to do!

    And how far does it extend? A non-religious parent who teaches his family to shun neighbours is hurled before the courts and fined? imprisoned? publically shamed?

    The whole notion that you should be able to compel a group to stop shunning is infantile. The irony is that this is raised in the context of combating an Orwellian group. A case of fight Orwell with Orwell. Duh!

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Thank you Simon for your thoughtful and well-written opening Post/Article.

    I think in the general points it makes it is worthy of a wider audience than just those of us on JWN, as you say, the JW stuff will just cause a yawn, but you make clear and good points about various Freedoms.

    It would be good for all Newbies to read it as they come on here, it may help them to get over their anger and pain quicker, and to direct their energies in productive ways to chip away at the WT.

    Well done again.

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