Religious Fanatacism

by drahcir yarrum 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • jukief
    jukief

    I view my brother as a radical, fundamentalist JW. His behavior is extreme, even my JW inlaws think he's out of line to be shunning my sister and me, who merely "fell away" and became inactive. But, at the same time, he's an elder. And he can find support, at least in his way of thinking, in the Bible and the WT publications. Nobody has rebuked him for his actions; on the contrary, he's being groomed for the circuit work. Now do most JWs act the way he does? No, I don't think so. But he is still a JW, isn't he?

    And the fact is that fundamentalist, extremist, terrorist Muslims are still Muslims. Even though most mainstream Muslims probably don't agree with today's actions and find it abhorant, it is still a faction of their religion that perpetrates many such terrorist acts (although nobody can say that Muslims are responsbile for today's acts). And yes, I *do* know many Muslims personally. When I was at university, I had lots of Muslim acquaintances who were international students from the Middle East. Although I strongly disagree with how Muslims treat women (and I received many lectures from Muslim men about how disgusting it was that I had bare arms and what a whore I was because of it--all this in a lab in a US university), I know that many Muslims are nice, kind people. But I also think that the Muslims who have come to the US to live are far different in their views from many of the radical people who live in the Middle East, who are surrounded daily by hatred and violence. When my kids were growing up, because we lived very close to university housing, they had friends from all over the world, from all religous persuasions. One of my older son's friends was Israeli and he came over to visit many times. I was horrified when I heard him spouting his hateful retoric against Palestinians. I challenged him on it, and he said the Muslims hated him just as much as he hated them. He was ready, at 10 years old, to kill Muslims, and he assured me they were just as ready to kill him. Unfortunately, these feelings are taught from childhood. And the Israelis are no better than the Palestinians.

    When one faction of a group does reprehensible things it reflects on the rest of the group. It's unfortunate, but true. It's the same way with American politics. I think countries in the Middle East and in the rest of the world have good reason to hate the United States. I disagree with our international policies, but I'm still an American and I'm going to regarded as an "ugly American" by many people as a result.

    None of it is very pretty.

  • fodeja
    fodeja
    I don't recall Christian or Jewish factions that call for the destruction of Islamic countries and people.

    Huh?! Learn history!

    And do inform yourself about what has been happening to the Palestinians in their enclaves for many years now. This treatment has always been supported by Jewish extremists. Palestinians have been treated like shit for a long time, and some of them are happy to see one of the scapegoats suffer.

    Nothing new under the sun, or is there?

    Besides, what does this have to do with the issue here? It's not one religion against the other. My point is that people shouldn't jump to conclusions and suspect obscure "muslim fundamentalists" without even the flimsiest evidence so far to support that. I do not doubt for a second that there are muslim extremists interested in blowing the United States to pieces. I'm just sick of sentiments that say it's somehow "typical" of that evil, bad muslim religion. That is simply false, a pure stereotype. Christianity has a long tradition of religiously motivated genocide just as well. Timothy McVeigh wasn't a bearded Muslim either.

    Do _you_ know any Muslims, TR, except those burning flags on TV? I do. They're very religious. They're very much against violence. Strange, huh?

    f.

    p.s.: drahcir, thanks for extending my vocabulary. I didn't know the expression "numbnuts" until now. Not that I had been missing anything, mind you. I am in awe of your reasoning skills.

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Calling for the bombing of Afghanistan if they don't give up bin Laden? Gooood, let's kill plenty of innocent Afghans to make up for the killing of innocent Americans.

    If bin Laden is responsble, and that seeem plausible, and the Afghan government shelters him, then target them. But to talk about bombing the country indiscriminantly is wrong. Don't assume that the average person in a country agrees with the actions of his or her government. It certainly doesn't happen that way here, and it doesn't happen that way there.

  • conflicted
    conflicted

    Fodeja, I fully and firmly agree with your standpoint. We don't know who commited this attrocity. We shouldn't look automatically toward any one religious group without any proof or evidence.

    But the tone with which you make your points is inciting vehement and ugly responses:

    It's just the kind of thinking that not only leads to the unspeakable acts of violence that we have seen today, but also to "surgical counter-terrorist strikes" on Somalian pharmaceutical plants.

    Your tone with this response puts the poster in the same group as "counter-terrorists".

    Do you personally know ANY muslims, or are you just repeating whatever the news media care to feed the public?

    Huh?! Learn history!

    Do _you_ know any Muslims, TR, except those burning flags on TV? I do.

    You insinuate with comments like these that the people you are speaking to are uneducated and foolish for telling their views. I don't fault you that TV isn't the proper form of education regarding Muslim religion, but when you throw comments like these around you aren't winning anyone to your way of thinking.

    When you call someone stupid or ignorant they aren't going flock to your banner, and I doubt they will try to educated themselves further for your benefit.

    You ridiculed drahcir twice for his use of profane language, and yet your words drip with cinicism and destain.

  • Kent
    Kent

    This case is a tragic case indeed, and my heart bleeds for the victims and their families. Such an act cannot be excused, but even in times like this, we need to keep our heads cooled down a bit.

    Naturally, someone would mention the Palestinians, but why should the Palestinians do anything like this? They are, actually, the ones that would have the most to lose on such an act, and I believe it’s 99,9 percent possibility the Palestinians had nothing what so ever to do with this act of terrorism.

    I do not say Israel is behind this – just so I have said that – but Israel actually had a lot to gain! I bet their prime minister secretly deep down in his soul already knows how to exploit this act of terrorism to gain his own goals. Because of their own terrorism in Palestine and Gaza, it’s great for them to get some evidence of the nasty “Islamic Terrorists”, and get the majority that has started condemning Israel to jum down on the “correct” side of the fence. And their former Prime Minister was exceptionally quick to point to that fact – even mentioning Yassir Arafat, even though Arafat had just made a public statement condemning the action.

    Actually the ones that had the blackest day in their history (besides the victims and their families, of course – I don’t forget their loss) are naturally the US Intelligence society. The only SuperPower left in the world, with the mightiest intelligence system in the world, couldn’t prevent this from happening.

    The US is really an open society, and nobody would like (I believe) to change that for a Police state. An Orwellian World, which, of course, some of the men behind the scenes would like it to be, and to whom happenings like this isn’t at all that bad – all things considered. They get more freedom to do what they want. To mention one example, the satellite shield, who has raised a roar of critics, will most probably in the new climate be wished and welcomed.

    I do NOT, of course, say anyone in the US government wanted this to happen, but when it DID happen, anyone can bet their sweeet soul they will use it for what it’s worth. And so will Israel. Unfortunately some Palestinians were shown sheering on the streets on TV, which gives fuel for the hatred against the Palestinian people. But we have to remember these people actually do have a hell of a lot of reasons for hating Israel and the US. The US because of its one sided stance for Israel, no matter the fact Israel has broken any law in the book – and fact is the US had bombed any other nation behaving like Israel do. Just remember Irak!

    This really is a sad day, and nobody knows how many causalities there are. And nobody expects the US not to react upon the ones guilty in this terrible action. Let’s just hope the government are responsible, and knows the difference between punishment of the guilty and sheer revenge!

    Nothing will be much better by the US bombing another country back to the stone age, killing innocent people another place in the world. Nobody who died by these actions in the US will be alive again by that.

    I’m afraid this is the fear terrorists wants everyone to have, they took out symbols, symbols of the US as the mighty military power of the world by hitting Pentagon, and the Economics and pride by also hitting the World Trade Centre. They have proved nobody is safe, and proved they can hit anywhere they want.

    The White House has been shot upon with sub machine gun, and a small plain has actually flown into it, if my memory serves me right. But we simply can’t protect us from this kind of actions. The only way is to remove peoples willingness to do such things, and then we need to take away their alibi. If all humans were treated with respect, nations were treated with respect, we wouldn’t have a Middle-East crisis, and there wouldn’t be any suicide bombers.

    Who is really behind this is sheer speculations, and I guess we’ll never know. Every time there is a terrorist action like this one, one or two names are mentioned – maximum four – and the reason is simple. WE DON’T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THESE PEOPLE!

    Therefore, I don’t think we will ever know who was behind this action – but I’m 99,9 percent sure this was NOT a Palestinian action. If someone in that area had anything to gain, it’s Israel – the Palestinians can only suffer even more by this truly tragic event.

    Again, my heart bleeds for the victims, their families, the US, and the democracies of the world. I’m afraid September 11. 2001 will be the day the Democracy was attacked – like Pearl Harbor is the symbol of the attack on the US….

    Yakki Da

    Kent

    I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

  • Kent
    Kent
    I'm sure US citizens don't celebrate when Palestinians or Israelis get killed in terroist attacks.

    Well, CNN isn't THE trustworthy source as to telling the full story. There is sick people all over the world. BUt you should remember the US did NOTHING to stop Israel from bombing Palestinian refugee camps, killing women and children. Maybe the kids you saw had family there?

    Truth can't be painted in black and white, my friend. After the first shock, politics went to work - don't ever forget it.

    As I said, this IS a tragedy, but it will be used to some groups gain further on.

    Yakki Da

    Kent

    I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

  • fodeja
    fodeja
    Your tone with this response puts the poster in the same group as "counter-terrorists".

    No, absolutely not. I'm not putting him in that sort of group. I'm pointing out that thinking in such stereotypes is one of the root causes that can lead to such acts. Stereotypes are also one of the necessary conditions of racism.

    I've been confronted with stereotypes of all sorts way too much, and seen too many people who were suffering from others' stereotypes. It's hard to stay calm and distanced with that background.

    English also isn't my first language (as if that isn't obvious from my style and grammar), so it's quite likely that some things may not sound the way I intended them.

    When you call someone stupid or ignorant they aren't going flock to your banner, and I doubt they will try to educated themselves further for your benefit.

    You may be right here; I wasn't exactly writing without emotion. TR, I honestly apologise for my tone in my reply to you, which was out of line. Conflicted, thanks for pointing this out.

    You ridiculed drahcir twice for his use of profane language, and yet your words drip with cinicism and destain.

    Well, yes. Some things upset me more than I'd like them to. You're absolutely right that my reply to TR was not okay. However, I'm not going to hide my cynicism and disdain about certain things, even if that doesn't help people "flocking to my banner". Whenever possible, I prefer cynicism over calling people I've never seen "fucking idiots" - the former being directed mostly against _ideas_ I reject strongly, the latter being just an ordinary personal insult.
    f.
  • conflicted
    conflicted
    Well, yes. Some things upset me more than I'd like them to. You're absolutely right that my reply to TR was not okay. However, I'm not going to hide my cynicism and disdain about certain things, even if that doesn't help people "flocking to my banner". Whenever possible, I prefer cynicism over calling people I've never seen "fucking idiots" - the former being directed mostly against _ideas_ I reject strongly, the latter being just an ordinary personal insult.

    Very true - I think we both learned something.

  • drahcir yarrum
    drahcir yarrum

    fodeja:

    I did not intend to, with a broad brush, insinuate that ALL Muslims should pay for the events of today. I'm sure that the vast majority of Muslims in the world are peace loving people. Unfortunately, the consequences of these terrorist attacks may very likely end in the loss of more innocent lives.

    Where this country must be on this now is TO SEND THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE MESSAGE that these acts will no longer be tolerated. As of right now, we obviously don't know who is responsible. But making assumptions about them being Arab terrorists (a small minority of the Arab world) is not racist.

    BTW, I just put my American flag out in a symbolic gesture of support for this country. If you have it, fly it!

  • TR
    TR

    fodeja,

    please quote me a Jewish or Christian doctrine or law that calls for the annhilation of an islamic country.

    TR

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
    —Edmund Burke

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