Reincarnation is there proof? (page 4)

frankiespeakin

Researchers say that the reincarnation happen within 100 or so miles of where the person died and thatif the person is in a higher level dimension they can transverse time and go backward in it and be reborn centuries in the past.

trevor

I don't think we will know for sure - in this lifetime!

daystar

frankiespeakin

Perhaps you should have named the subject of this thread "Reincarnation, I have proof!"

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but it seems to me that you've already made up your mind. If so, what purpose did you have for creating this thread other than to try to convince others?

acadian

As much as their is proof of the resurrection... Material Source: By Gary, Oblate of O:N:E: Edited by Acadian

Nowhere in the bible does it state that reincarnation is a false belief or doctrine, there are numerous references to it if you wish to see them, the whole of the bible is the record of the various incarnations of the one soul from Adam to Jesus told in an historical context, the basic message is the same from beginning to end.
"THE LORD THY GOD IS ONE, LOVE YOUR GOD WITH ALLYOUR HEART MIND AND SOUL, AND
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF", or "the law" as given in the old and new testaments, it is universal, timeless, all encompassing and totally applicable in all situations.
Traditional interpretation of the gospels does not have coherence without the concept of reincarnation and its inseparable complement, karma, or THAT WHICH YOU SOW YOU SHALL REAP". . Jesus states, that which he had done we could do, and more, the simple fact is that one lifetime is not long enough for us to gain the depth of understanding of the natural laws that Jesus had attained.
The traditional Christian teaching of one lifetime is meaningless if the purpose of our material existence is the achievement of oneness with our father, we are born utterly ignorant and obviously do not achieve perfection in one lifetime. If we are to do what Jesus had done in the material plane we obviously need to go through all of the lessons, trials and temptations that Jesus over came, the ascertain of attaining oneness with our father in one life time is a self-deceptive, a self delusive shortcut.
Some verses to consider:
MELCHIZEDEK

1. Genesis 14:18 And Melchisedek king of Salem [possibly Jerusalem] brought forth bread and wine, and he was high priest of the most high god.

2. Psalm 110:4 The lord has sworn and will not repent, thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

3. Hebrews 5; 6 As he saith in another place, thou art priest for ever after the order of melchizedek, crying and tears unto him that was able to save from death, and was heard in that he feared.

4. 5:8 Though he were a son he learned obedience by the things he suffered.

5. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obeyed.

6. 5:10 Called of god an high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

7. 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing you are hard of hearing.

8. 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered even Jesus, made a high priest fore ever after the order of Melchizedek.

9. 7:2 To whom Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being by interpretation " KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS " and after that also king of salem, which is "KING OF PEACE."

10. 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God, abideth a priest continually.
11. 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change of the law.

12. 7:15 And it is far more evident, for the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest.
13. 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of better testament.

14. 7:23 And they were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death.

15. 7:24 But this man, because he continueth forever, hath unchangeable priesthood. RESURRECTION:
16. HEBREWS 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.
17. ROMANS 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death , we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection
18. LUKE 14:13 But thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind.

19. 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed, for they cannot recompense thee for thou shall be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

20. 20:27 Then came to him certain Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection. ADAM

21. ROMANS 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of adams transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

22. 5; 19 For by one mans disobedience many where made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

23. LUKE 13: 38, Which was the son of enos, which was the son Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God.

24. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:45 And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
25. REELATION 1; 11 Saying I am the alpha and omega, the first and last.

26. 1; 18 I am the alpha and omega the beginning and the ending, saith the lord, which is, which was, and which is to come, the almighty.
27. 3; 14 These things says the amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation god. REFERENCE VERSES
28. ZECHARIAH 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee, for they are men wondered at, for behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

29. 6:11Then take silver and gold and make crowns and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of josedech, the priest.

30. 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, behold the man whose name is the BRANCH, and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the lord.

31. 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the lord, and he shall bear the glory, and the council of peace shall be between them both.

32. ROMANS 5:14 Nevertheless death reign from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adams transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

33. 5:19 For as mans disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

34. 1CORINTHIANS 15; 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive.

35. 1CORINTHIANS 15:45 And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

36. 2 CORINTHIANS 5; 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that whilst we are home in the body, we are absent from the lord.

37. 5:7 We are confident, I say and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the lord.

38. JOHN 8:56 Your father abrahm rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.

39. 8:57 Then the Jews say unto him, thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen abraham?

40. 8:58 Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

41. LUKE 21:32 Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

42. 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things that are written may be fulfilled.
43. PROVERBS 8:22 The lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or the earth was.
8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with water
8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills I was brought forth.
8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields nor the highest parts of the dust of the world
8:27 When he prepared the heavens I was there when he set a compass on the face of the deep.
8; 28 When he established the clouds above, when he strengthened the fountains of the deep.
8; 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment, when he appointed the foundations of the earth.
8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him and I was his daily delight, rejoicing daily before him.
8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable parts of the earth. and my delight were with the sons of men.

44. MALACHI 3:1 Behold, I will send you my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the lord whom you seek shall suddenly come to his temple even the messenger of the covenant whom you delight in, behold he shall come saith the lord of hosts.
45. 4:5 Behold I will send you elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the lord

46. MATTHEW 17:10 And his disciples asked him , saying , why then say the scribes that elijah must first come

47. 17; 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elisa shall truly come first, and restore all things.

48. 17; 12 But I say unto you that Elisa is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed, likewise shall the son of man suffer of them.

49. 11; 13 For all prophets and the law prophesied until john.

50. 11; 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

51. MATTHEW 12; 43 When an unclean spirit goes out of man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
52. 12; 44 Then he says, I will return to my house from which I came. And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
53. 12; 45 Then he takes with him seven other wicked spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there, and the state of the man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation
ANALYSIS
MELCHIZEDEK refer to previous verses

Not much information is given in the bible concerning melchizedek, he was obviously held in very high regard, only Jesus, Adam and melchizedek were refereed to as sons of god, all appear to have been created by god, only Jesus having been born of woman. One of the strongest references to Jesus having been a latter incarnation of Melchizedek is given in

Hebrews 6; 20 [ref 8], the forerunner being Melchizedek. The many references to Jesus having been a high priest after the order of melchizedek [since this is not given to any other], and the uniqueness of melchizedeks existence [without father, without mother, without descent] gives melchizedek a status exceeded only by Jesus.

Why would Jesus be compared to Melchizedek if his status was not equal to or greater than Jesus, he certainly would not be compared to anyone lesser than himself.
The similitude [a thing so like another as to be indistinguishable from it] of melchizedek to Jesus is stated in

Hebrews 7; 15 [REF 12] meaning both were of the same nature and of simular purpose, one being the KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS the other being the PRINCE OF PEACE.

Hebrews 7; 23 [ref 14] states "And they [Jesus and melchizedek presumably] truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death ", they were the one soul that incarnated many times that had transcended physical death and could enter and leave the physical world at will without having to go through birth and death and had been priests many times, would be a far more understandable translation.
Hebrews 7; 24 [ref 15] States that Jesus has an unchangeable priesthood, it is stated elsewhere that Jesus was a priest after the order of melchizedek this alludes to the fact that Jesus was melchizedek in another incarnation.
Hebrews 7; 24 [ref 15] also states Jesus had an unchangeable priesthood, same priest different time.
RESURRECTION refer to previous verses
Hebrews 11; 35 [REF16] speaks of receiving a better resurrection after a life of torture [followers of Jesus presumably], resurrection in the context of the passage is not consistent with the meaning of the word, no mention is made in the gospels of being resurrected to a better life, however if we substitute resurrection with reincarnation the passage does make sense .
To live a life of suffering and sacrifice and be reincarnated into a more fortunate subsequent life is consistent with the passage and with reincarnation ,what is the point of life if it not improved.

The meanings of the words resurrect and reincarnate are simular in that reincarnation into another body is the resurrection of the same soul into new flesh , for when we die are we not resurrected into a spiritual body , the two could easily be confused , interpretation depends mainly on the ideological persuasion of the translator .

ROMANS 6:5 [REF 17] Jesus showed it was possible to transcend physical death by the act of allowing himself to be killed and bringing himself back to life. It was also an example to show that he was the representation of all of the laws he gave, or the living law.

LUKE 14; 13+14[REF 18+19] Resurrection of the just simply means a more fortunate subsequent incarnation for the just
LUKE 20; 27[REF 20] Sudducees denied the existence of resurrection, they asked Jesus to give an account of it wherein he gives an explanation which seemingly has nothing to do with resurrection in the accepted sense, however if we substitute reincarnation for resurrection the passage does make sense in that if you were incarnated in the time of abraham, Isaac or Jacob you were under the law of the same god, the original word has either been translated incorrectly or changed latter to suit a particular ideology .

Contention between Jesus and the Sadducees had a strictly dogmatic basis; the proposition of reincarnation was obviously an alien concept to the religious higherachy of the day [as it is now]. The statements of Jesus of having been Adam, Melchizedek, Joshua etc, and being the fulfilment of prophecy and the law were too much so Jesus had to be eliminated.

ADAM refer to previous verses

REVELATION 3; 14 [REF 27] .The amen, the faith-full and true witness whom we must assume is Jesus states that he is the beginning of gods creation, meaning Adam or humankind, this is supported by numerous other gospel references to Jesus being the alpha and omega the beginning and end, we may safely assume that Jesus was referring to the fact that he once was Adam. Jesus, Adam and melchizedek where given the unique distinction of being called, SONS OF GOD, why would they be given the same title if they were not one and the same.

ROMANS 5; 14[REF 21] " Who is the figure of him that was to come", this could only refer to Jesus if it is meant that Jesus was to remove death from the world.

1 CORINTHIANS 15; 45 [REF 24] The first Adam a living soul, the second Adam a quickening spirit, this simply means when Jesus came into the world as Adam he created the sin that the world was to bear and when he incarnated as Jesus he had completed the full circle by atonement for the sin that he had created in the beginning.

2 CORINTHIANS 15; 22 [REF 34] This verse reiterates [REF 24]. What was the purpose of the mission of Jesus? What was the sin of the world? Why did Jesus have to die to take on the sin of the world? How did the death of Jesus remove sin from the world? As stated, Adam brought death or sin into the world through the separation or put another way, the will-full disobedience to god and so began mans descent into materiality, the turning away from the law of god into the condition of my will not thy will. Through Adam we inherit a living hell, through Jesus we are shown the way out and that there is no death or that physical death is really birth into the spiritual for when we are absent from the body we are present with the lord [REF 9].

The statements of Jesus being the first and last, the alpha and omega makes more understandable the mission of Jesus, the bible is the record of the sojourn of one soul from Adam to Jesus.

The circle is complete in Jesus, from god to god, that is, Adam "son of god " and his descent into the physical and the experience of all sins, trials and temptations of the world, through the various incarnations and the final achievement of oneness by the supreme act of allowing himself to be killed .The total mastery over material existence , being able to enter and leave the physical at will , the atonement for the greatest sin ever committed , the circle is complete .

The ascertain that Jesus died for my sins makes no sense without the original separation and the final at-one-ment. Without Jesus having been Adam the gospel message is nonsensical, the connection between Jesus and Adam is fundamental to Christian doctrine.

The acceptance of Jesus as lord and saviour is only the beginning of the realisation of the purpose of Jesus, the new covenant of Jesus brought new hope to a soul sick people, it gave them a new perspective and brought the realisation that although we are in the world our true nature is not of the world, it gave mankind freedom from the bondage of materialism.

REFERENCE VERSES refer to previous verses

ZECHARIAH 3; 8 [REF 28] Reference is made to Joshua as being the BRANCH, the vine being Christ. .6; 12[REF 3]" The council of peace shall be between them both", the other party referred to hear is Jesus, Joshua then Jesus later both preached the same gospel of peace.

JOHN 8; 56 [REF 38] "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", "before abraham was I am", an unambiguous statement impossible to refute, the meaning is self-evident.

LUKE 21; 32 [REF 41] After giving prophecy of events which appear to be happening in present times Jesus states, "this generation shall not pass away till all be full-filled", meaning those who heard the prophecy would be reincarnated into the times when those events would occur, since the events spoken of did not occur in the time of that generation it must be assumed the events were to unfold in the future, the statement is meaningless in the context of one physical life but is coherent in terms of reincarnation .

PROVERBS 8; 22>30 [REF 43] We may assume that the writer is referring to Jesus.

MALACHI [3; 1 + 4; 5] [REF 44+45] The first reference to a messenger being sent is in 3; 5 the second reference in 5; 4 names him as Elijah [also called Elias], the statements are unambiguous.

MATTHEW 17; 11[REF 47] Jesus confirms that Elias shall first come as stated in malachi 4; 5, the prophecy was full-filled, the statements are quite clear and in the then present tense. REF [48] Verse 17; 12 confirms that Elias had reincarnated as john the Baptist but they knew him not.

Matthew 11; 14 [REF 50] Clearly states that john the baptist was Elijah if you will receive it.

MATTHEW 12; 43 [REF 51] This simply means, when a man dies.

MATTHEW 12; 44[REF 52] When a soul reincarnates it returns into a new body

MATTHEW 12; 45 [REF 53] If a soul reincarnates and has not made conscious efforts to remove the evil that was present in its previous life then the latter incarnation shall be worse than the previous, "the latter condition of the backslider shall be worse than the first." The contention that a soul may do what ever it likes in one life and then fix it up in the next comes from a lack of understanding of the true nature of reincarnation; the previous three verses refute that contention completely. These three verses also refer to suicide. The purpose of reincarnation is the gaining of oneness with our creator, Jesus showed us how this may be attained.
GENERAL

Jesus states that after certain events have occurred on earth he will return again unannounced, there are two possible ways he will do this, firstly he will either reincarnate into the body of a baby or secondly he will appear as a spontaneous creation of god, [like melchizedek], these seem to be the only two ways for a soul to enter the material plane. Jesus did not give a set of laws for us to live by and have another set for himself, he was the living law, the embodiment, and the ensample of those laws in the material world.

Contention between Jesus and the ruling religious elite of his day is well documented, the assumption must be made that the souls refuting the law as given by jesus then are the same souls refuting it now, that is, reincarnated pharisees and sadducees. Nothing has changed, we still have the ruling religious elite determining doctrinal policy, adding to and leaving out of the law whatever suites its particular ism or schism, manipulating thought through guilt, fear, and the threat of retribution.

The Buddha stated that within forty years of his death the essence of his teachings would be lost, the same fate has befallen Jesus, the teachings have been changed to something only vaguely similar to the original, the sacred purity and simplicity of law as given by Jesus has been twisted into something almost unidentifiable with its origin, go to any christian book store and see how many different versions there are of the same document, all different. The mind-numbing stupidity of the catholic belief system and idiocy of most protestant faiths is driving most sincere spiritual seekers away, fortunately human thought has evolved to the point where it will no longer accept manipulation by ecclesiastical power mongers.

The number of people killed in the name of god or Jesus in the last 2000 years is a sickening testament to the total lack of understanding and application of the teachings of Jesus. The prince of peace would have nothing to do with blessing the battle ships; the god that Jesus spoke of is a god of love not war.

Christians in the west are turning away from the institutionalised religions simply because they are sick of hearing incorrect information, it was simple in the days of Constantine of Rome to impose a state religion on the uneducated masses and enforce it militarily, institutionalised religions are reaping the just deserts of preaching rubbish for the last 18 centuries.

It was not that long ago that no one was allowed to own a bible, today it is impossible to control information, the availability of translations of the original documents that the bible was based on will bring the death knell to the modern church. Documents such as the "Essene Gospel of Peace" written in the time of jesus gives a profoundly different account of the teachings of Jesus, the document speaks of healing, diet, human conduct and mans true relationship with his creator, it is no longer possible to manipulate a spiritual belief systems, the truth will out and bear witness to itself.

Jesus spoke of a god of love and of a personal relationship we all have with our god, and of the joyful, peaceful and harmonious existence it is possible to experience when we follow wholeheartedly the few laws of childlike simplicity that he gave, there is nothing complicated about the message of Jesus.

What the Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Moslems and every other ism and shism don’t realise is that when Jesus returns the whole of the existing religious power structure in place will be dismantled. The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah , the Protestants are waiting for Jesus to come again, the Moslems also believe Jesus will come again as their Messiah, what will happen when Jesus returns, will he have every different belief system claiming him as their own and inviting him to be leader of their particular dogma.

Some questions Jesus might ask are, have you loved your god with all your heart, mind and soul, have you loved your neighbours as yourselves did you give your brother water when he was thirsty, did you give your sister bread when she was hungry, did you cloth them when naked, if you have not done these things I do not know you.

I guess when we die we'll find out for sure... see you on the other side....
Acadian
without prejudice
U.C.C. 1-207
All material presented for educational purposes only

BlessedStar

The case for reincarnation is at least as strong as the case for resurrection.

I beg to disagree strongly.

The case for reincarnation is not at least as strong as the case for resurrection.

There is no proof at all for reincarnation far less any record of it. Do you know of any?

On the otherhand, there is proof and record of resurrections.

blessedstar

trevor

acadian -I will need to come back in another life to finish your exhaustive post!

Robdar

I beg to disagree strongly.

The case for reincarnation is not at least as strong as the case for resurrection.

There is no proof at all for reincarnation far less any record of it. Do you know of any?

On the otherhand, there is proof and record of resurrections.

Proof and record of resurrections? Are you talking about the Bible? Don't confuse your personal beliefs with "proof". If you must tout the Bible, I have to ask, did you even read the post above yours? The scriptures sited could suggest reincarnation as a possibility.

funkyderek

frankiespeakin:

Actually these experiences are more common than you think. Volumes of experiences have been recorded.

I don't doubt it. For any widely held belief system, there are usually numerous "experiences". No solid evidence so far, though.

It seem though that in the young children that have this recall, thier past life was cut short, they died suddenly with much unfinish business therefore they were incarnated rather quickly.

It doesn't seem that way at all. Those who have decided to believe in reincarnation, and found (or invented) suitably imaginative children have decided that this should be the case. Likely, it sells more books to have the children "remember" being stabbed rather than dying in their sleep at a ripe old age.

Most reincarnation take many yrs 50 or sometimes centuries before they have another material body in this dimession.

Says who? Again, this "fact" is just an invention of those who have decided to believe in reincarnation.

Researchers say that the reincarnation happen within 100 or so miles of where the person died

Why do they say this? What real evidence is there to support it?

and thatif the person is in a higher level dimension they can transverse time and go backward in it and be reborn centuries in the past.

Have they found children with memories of the distant future then? Otherwise, how could the "researchers" "know" this? Also, this doesn't square with what I know about time travel. They need a DeLorean with a flux capacitor going 88mph, or they're not going anywhere.

Inquisitor

Romy's case would indeed be baffling if we take everything the author says as Gospel. But it isn't Gospel now, is it?

That experience is not exactly "scientific evidence". No measurements, no controls.

1) Believers say these recollections of past lives are very very common. But the same assertion can be made of people who claim to have seen a UFO or who have seen the tunnel of light in the alleged limbo between life and death. Must we also believe these claims because they occur frequently?

2)

The book that I choose to read on the subject are written by those with Phds, that have there academic careers at stake.

Oh there are many, many experts out there who would tell you anything you want to/ dread to hear. From how the damage by greenhouse gases have been exaggerated to scientific proof of God's design in nature. Their credibility should be determined by their arguments, and not solely by what precedes their first name.

INQ

Inquisitor

One young 2-year old in Oklahoma, insisted that his name was Jimmy but each time he would be told ‘No, it is Jeremy’. Jeremy saw a picture of a wagon in a book and told his grandmother, ‘The wagon hit me. I was dead and I was angry with the man who drove the wagon.’ Another time he asked his father, ‘What’s wrong with your back? Is it killing you? My back got hurt one time and it killed me.’

Btw, may I just add that this 2 year old is one freaky child in his speaking abilities, nevermind his past life!!!

I'm led to believe that at that age, a 2 year old initially manifests single word speech with lotsa holophrases. Holophrases are simple words employed by kids to imply more than they mean. e.g. "Water" is used to mean "I want water" or "There is water!" Yes that is how they are supposed to talk. "Water!" "Potty!" "Daddy!"

Single word speech is then gradually replaced with Two word speech (telegraphic speech). e.g. "Mummy car", "naughty baby". Note that articles like "a","an","the" are often ommitted, thus the speech resembles that of a telegram.

A 2 year-old child would know on average about 50 words.

He/She will only progress towards using multiple sentences at age 4.

I know these are estimates, but it's a rough guide of what to expect. So like I said, the two year old mentioned would make a fascintaing subject for developmental studies before anyone would care about his past life.

INQ

Reincarnation is there proof?

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