Let me first state that i'm not fully impressed with this mans presentation to the Witness and that it would be far from effective if used on any hard core JW. With that said I think that the actions of this witness girl are quite telling. View the video here:
Link to Google VIdeo
The most telling thing about this is the girls reaction at the end. When the guy says "what are you going to do about this" she simply states she needs to get back to the Kingdom Hall and start doing what she is supposed to. The man then tells here she needs to recognize there is nothing she can do to save herself and that she needs to put here faith in Jesus (or something like that).
Here I think is illustrated the problem that the society faces. To many members thinking they need to 'do' something for salvation. They need to get 'back on track'. These same ones put all their faith in the 'knowledge' they have that others don't have access too. How many members today would start to have strong doubts about the witnesses with even such a weak attack as this on their faith? How many JWs are on the fringes like this?
video of JW speaking to conservative christian
by drew sagan 10 Replies latest jw friends
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drew sagan
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kwr
In the video he falsely claims Jesus used the word Hell when he did use the word Gehenna. Look it up in any accrodance. Even NIV study bibles admit in the notes that it is Gehenna that Jesus used to describe death without belief in YHWH and those that belief shall be resurrected.
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XJW4EVR
The whole idea of a loving God sending people to an eternal concious place of torture is one that the bible does not teach.
Gee, I don't know what Jesus' teaching about Gehenna means to you? It sure sounds like a real place to me. Might I point you to Robert Morey's book Death and the Afterlife in which he systematically & exegetically makes the case for both aspects of a conscious afterlife.
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freetosee
I think the Christian guy was at an advantage (just like when JW go doortodoor), he was well prepared and had others supporting him, he purposely spoke very fast and didn’t give her much time to think, and don’t forget the camera in her face. This video doesn’t discredit JW in any way. To me those using tactics like these makes them all the same. So much to “pinpointevangelism”!
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kwr
Of course it was a real place. It was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem that burned trash and human remains. The idea that there is a hell or hades, river styx and other damnation beliefs where your soul goes if you don't believe what I believe come from Greek myths and thought. These hell and damnation beliefs have been woven into the Bible through the translations and commentary. When you die you go to the grave where some will be resurrected and others will be left there based on their sins.
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Leolaia
I also very much dislike his pressure tactics. Notice that she had to come to a decision that day! And she was guided to that desired decision through a very narrow argument centering on hell. This argument can easily be picked apart if only she had time to think about it. And you can tell he was following a script...I've heard the "ten commandments" used in a similar way before by these preachers, and at one point she threw him off when she didn't give the answer he was expecting (about losing both eyes).
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Leolaia
Of course it was a real place. It was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem that burned trash and human remains. The idea that there is a hell or hades, river styx and other damnation beliefs where your soul goes if you don't believe what I believe come from Greek myths and thought. These hell and damnation beliefs have been woven into the Bible through the translations and commentary. When you die you go to the grave where some will be resurrected and others will be left there based on their sins.
The notion of eternal punishment in an eschatological Gehenna was a feature of first-century Judaism, particularly in apocalyptic texts, and this notion had its influence in some parts of the NT -- especially Matthew, Jude, and Revelation. In fact, it was a key feature of beliefs in a final judgment, the notion of Judgment Day. BTW, the idea wasn't that an immortal soul goes to Gehenna immediately at death but after judgment on Judgment Day, tho some Jews also believed that even before the resurrection there may be rewards and punishments.
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Wasanelder Once
Ok everybody. Let's all get on the bus to Hell. This nutjob with the mircrophone is about as compelling as a nail in the eye. You see, Bible experts abound. Any jackass with a bible, a concordance and a self righteous attitude can stand and cover the fact that they have no self worth or purpose to thier day other than condemn others for what they themselves do not do.
Give him a fish and tell him to do a trick for Jesus.
Laud our God, Laud Jehovah God.
W.Once
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Leolaia
The bible teaches quite clearly that death is death. There aren't parts of your existence that continue on after death, unless the whole you is brought back to life by God.
The Bible doesn't teach one thing. It is an anthology of different books from different perspectives and they therefore have different eschatological orientations. Some parts of the Bible that do not assume resurrection (such as Job or Ecclesiastes) have a more archaic OT view...but even then, throughout the OT there are views expressed that the dead do have continued existence as Rephaim in Sheol (see Isaiah 14, for instance); this is a survival of the older Canaanite view of the dead which also refers to the dead as Rephaim, or "healers". The main idea however is that deathly existence is not life and lacks everything that life is (i.e. bodily existence). A belief in renewed life emerged in the post-exilic period via the idea of the resurrection. The notion of resurrection is predicated on the belief that something survives death from the original person and there are scores of examples of this in Jewish writings, the NT, and other early Christian writings. The Watchtower teaching is not resurrection as it was understood in early Judaism and Christianity.
And as far as I can tell, the bible never says that people go to heaven either.
2 Corinthians and Revelation provide some examples.
The 144,000 study is quite interesting. IT is obvious that they too are ON THE EARTH as the correct translation from the greek reads in Rev 5:10
In Revelation, the dead martyrs are gathered together in heaven until their number is complete and then the Beast and its followers are all put to death. Then after the resurrection, New Jerusalem (where God, Jesus, and the saints are gathered) comes down to a new earth. This is quite similar to the eschatological scenario in 4 Ezra.
It makes no sense to be purchased with blood to become a ghost or invisible goblin or any other sort of Greek platonism.
In Revelation the saints in the resurrection are not "ghosts" or "invisible goblins". But before they are resurrected, their "souls" (psukhas, the only place in the NT in which the word "soul" has its Platonic sense as the part of a person that survives death) are in heaven and must wait until their number is complete.
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Leolaia
But I have been through that book over and over again, and taken numerous classes on Hebrew and Greek, studied the concordances, commentaries, and all the books to my hearts avail, to find out that the bible does teach ONENESS. It is about unity not separation.
Of course oneness is taught in the Bible, e.g. the oneness of the Christian community (Galatians 3:26-28, John 10:16), oneness of the Son and the Father (John 10:30), etc. But the idea that the 66 books that were later compiled into the "Bible" must reflect a single perspective, a single theology and eschatology, etc. is not just unexpressed in the Bible but it is also contrary to the evidence from the books themselves -- and I say this with much study and experience as well. The effort to develop a synthetic theology from all the biblical material is all fine and good (as it has served christology well for hundreds of years), but often it is at the expense of the meaning in the texts themselves such that a given passage is interpreted in a way that best harmonizes with other texts rather than how the passage works in the text itself. It is quite clear when the texts are examined closely that Matthew has a different understanding of the Law than Paul, or that Ecclesiastes has a different understanding of death than Matthew, etc. Paul and the author of John had varying perspectives, just as Irenaeus and Tertullian had a century later...just like any other writer. I think the unusual notion that the Bible has one single viewpoint (and which is it exactly -- there are many different harmonizations to be found throughout Christianity) needs to be established rather than assumed a priori.
Just for the sake of it, can you quote some texts about humans traveling in spirit form to dwell in heaven? I sure can't find them... Please pick the ones that are clear about the transition.
This is a bit of a loaded expression. "Traveling in spirit form" is too precise and specific since most texts are just not explicit about the details. The essential concept is that some of the righteous spend the intermediate state between death and resurrection in heaven. Now that may imply a "spirit form" (if one is not embodied again until the resurrection) and a journey to heaven, but most Jewish and Chrisian texts do not spell that out. Moreover, many -- if not most -- other texts assume that the intermediate state occurs in Sheol or the underworld (e.g. 1 Enoch 22:1-14, concerning the underground chambers where "the spirits of the souls of the dead are assembled ... until the day of their judgment" and where they are divided into groups of righteous and sinners; 4 Ezra 4:33-34, in which "the souls of the righteous in their chambers" in Hades must wait until "the number of those like yourselves is completed" before they will be resurrected; Josephus in BJ 2.8.2-14 and Antiquities 18.1.3-5 repeats the belief that only the "souls of good men" will be "reunited into glorified bodies" while the souls of wicked will remain "under the earth ... detained in an everlasting prison"; Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 5.31.2 states that when Christians die they "shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event, and then receive their bodies, rising whole and bodily just as the Lord arose, and then coming into the presence of God", etc.). As far as heaven being the locale of the intermediate state before resurrection or afterwards, this appears in various places including:
(1) Josephus (BJ, 3.374) says with respect to the righteous that "their souls depart from from this life in accordance to nature's law" and "their souls remain without blemish, and obedient and receive the most holy place in heaven. From there, when the ages come round again they will come back to live instead in holy bodies"; (2) 1QH 3:19-23, anticipating later Christian ideas, refers to the community as redeemed from Sheol with eternal life in view, "lifted up to an eternal height ... to be stationed with the host of the holy ones and to enter into fellowship with the congregation of the children of heaven"; (3) The Book of Parables similarly refers to "the resting places of the righteous" as "with his righteous angels ... with the holy ones (1 Enoch 39:4-5), who pray for the wicked in advance of Judgement Day (41:1-9); (4) Testament of Abraham 20:11-14 states that while Abraham was being buried "the angels escorted his precious soul and ascended into heaven ... into Paradise, where there are the tents of the righteous ones and where the mansions of the holy ones, Isaac and Jacob, are in his [Abraham's] bosom, where there is no toil, no grief, no moaning, but peace and exultation and endless life"; (5) the Assumption of Moses (which lies behind the allusion in Jude 9) similarly describes the burial of Moses' body and states that Joshua saw the spirit of Moses being taken away with the angels into heaven (cf. Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 6.15.132, Origen, De Principiis 3.2.1, Homily on Joshua 2.1, Euodius, Epistle 158.6; cf. Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, Deuteronomy 34:6); (6) the Testament of Isaac 7:1-2 describes the Lord extracting the soul of Isaac from his body and he "carried it with him upon his holy chariot and ascended with it to the heavens"; (7) 4 Maccabees warns that "great is the struggle of the soul and the danger of eternal torment lying before those who transgress the commandment of God," noting that if we die faithfully "Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will welcome us and all the fathers will praise us," for "our patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and Jacob do not die to God but live to God," as "the sons of Abraham with their victorious mother are gathered together into the chorus of the fathers" (13:13-17, 7:19, 16:25, 18:23-24); (8) Apocalypse of Moses 37:4-5 similarly describes the angels taking Adam after his death "up into Paradise, to the third heaven, leaving him there until that great and fearful day" [i.e. Judgement Day]; (9) Luke 9:28-36 parr. describes the appearance of Moses and Elijah during the transfiguration of Jesus (cf. the belief that Moses ascended to heaven in the spirit), Luke 16:19-31 similarly describes the continued existence of Abraham in "the bosom of Abraham" where the righteous reside in advance of the resurrection (cf. the Testament of Abraham which locates the "bosom of Abraham" in heaven), and Luke 23:43 suggests that the repentent will find themselves in "Paradise" on the day they die, (10) Paul refers to death as being "absent from the body and at home with the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 5:1-11, and since being with the Lord or being "absent from the Lord" (v. 6) is dependent on being "at home in the body", it is axiomatic that one goes to be with Christ immediately at death where "we have an eternal house in heaven"....similarly Paul contrasts "remaining in the flesh" with "departing and being with Christ" in Philippians 1:21-24, and both phrases implying departure from the body compare well with 2 Corinthians 12:2-3 in which Paul describes a journey "in the body or out of the body" to "Paradise ... third heaven" (cf. 2 Peter 1:14, Apocalyse of Moses 37:4-5, Ascension of Isaiah 8:1-16; 2 Enoch 22:1-10; 3 Baruch 17:3); (11) in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul stresses the heavenly nature of the resurrection body for "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (v. 48-50) and in Philippians 3:14, 20-21 he similarly states that he is called "upward" to receive his "victory prize", for "our citizenship is in heaven" and notes that Christ "will transfigure these wretched bodies of ours so they will be like his glorious body"....note that in these Pauline texts, the focus is not on the intermediate state but has life in the resurrection in view; (12) Ephesians 2:6, referring to the inauguriated effects of salvation, states that God "has given us a place with him in heaven," again the eschatology seems to look beyond the intermediate state; (13) 2 Timothy 4:18 may allude to a similar hope, that the Lord will "bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom"; (14) the author of Hebrews also refers to "the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival, with the whole church in which everyone is a first-born son and a citizen of heaven" (12:22); (15) the Johannine material has a realized eschatology throughout, but with a heavenly destiny implied in John 14:1-3; (16) in a striking parallel to 4 Ezra 4:33-34, Revelation 6:9-11 describes the "souls (psukhas) of those who had been slain" in heaven "under the altar"; the description is clearly of their intermediate state prior to their resurrection because they have to wait "until the number of their fellow servants who were to be killed was completed," and the resurrection occurs after the Beast and his lackeys are executed (ch. 19-20); (17) in similar terms, a "great multitude" of martyrs are gathered "before the throne" and "in heaven" (7:14-15, 19:1); it is not until after the resurrection and the forming of a new earth when the temple and New Jerusalem "comes down out of heaven" to be established on the earth (21:1-2); (18) Clement of Rome states that when they were martyred, Peter "went to his appointed place of glory" and Paul "went to the holy place" (1 Clement 5:3-7), usual expressions for heaven, and similarly mentioned that the aged presbyters went to "the place appointed to them" (44:5); (19) Polycarp of Smyrna similarly notes that Paul and the other apostles "are now in the place appointed to them with the Lord" (Philippians 9:1-2); (20) the Martyrdom of Polycarp also claims that "the martyrs of Christ" are "exempted from eternal punishment" and were "no longer men but already angels" (3:4), and that the martyred Polycarp himself has "obtained the crown of incorruption, now celebrating with the apostles and all the righteous ones" (19:2); (21) Hermas of Rome states that those who "endure the coming great tribulation and not deny their life" will "gain entrance with the holy angels" (Vision 2.2.7), and that the righteous have "their place with the angels if they continue seving the Lord to the end" (Parable 9.27.3); (22) the Acts of Thomas (147) has a prayer seeking "recompense and requital in heaven"; (23) Hippolytus (Contra Platonem, 1-2) claimed that "the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfading kingdom who are at present detained in Hades but not in the same place with the unrighteous" (cf. the similar view in 1 Enoch 22, 4 Ezra 4), a place called "Abraham's bosom," and who wait for the resurrection which will give them "eternal revival in heaven"; (24) Tertullian (Apologeticus, 47) refers to "Paradise, the place of heavenly bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints", and also he states that in the resurrection "we shall be provided with a home in heaven" and "an eternal abode is promised in heaven" (De Resurrectione, 41).
Now, there is lots of variation between these texts in perspective, such as the extent to which bodily resurrection is in view, but throughout there is a leitmotif that construes those who have died as having an existence in heaven either in the resurrection, in the intermediate state, or both.