Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

AuldSoul

Schizm: Here's something for you to consider, which you will no doubt disagree with, but that shows that the WTS will refine its thinking on these issues:
And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed. -- Daniel 11:35

Now go ahead and tell me how much you disagree with my impression of what that scripture means.

I don't disagree with your assessment of what the Scripture means, only with the group to which you choose to apply it. There is nothing in the entire Bible about this obscure, tiny little religion that would pop up in the late 1800s.

Your understanding of the meaning of Daniel 11:35 could apply equally well to any religion that claims to adhere to the Bible, including Judaism. If you disagree with that statement, please try to clearly explain why you disagree. Also, avoid personal insults if you can. Otherwise I will report your posts to an administrator.

AuldSoul

Hellrider

And note also how the passage says:

"And some of those having insight will be made to stumble"

...and not "some of those having insight will fall face-first into a pile of horse manure time and time again in an endless repetitive motion".

LittleToe

What have you got against endless repetitive motions?

Schizm

I don't disagree with your assessment of what the Scripture means, only with the group to which you choose to apply it.

I'm actually astounded that you don't disagree, altogether. Maybe there's hope for you after all?

Obviously the verse has to apply to some religion that claims to be "Christian". So which "Christian" religion would it be? First off, it couldn't refer to what is commonly referred to as "Christendom", a religion that's split up into a multitude of denominations. Denominations do not equal UNITY. Surely the group that Daniel 11:35 applies to would be UNIFIED, rather than split apart into various denominations as Christendom's churches are.

There is nothing in the entire Bible about this obscure, tiny little religion that would pop up in the late 1800s.

Again, I say, the verse has to apply to some religion that claims to be "Christian". Since the text doesn't name the specific group being referred to then the reader is left to use his/her powers of discernment to make the proper application.

Your understanding of the meaning of Daniel 11:35 could apply equally well to any religion that claims to adhere to the Bible, including Judaism.

Don't you mean "our" understanding? You did say that you agreed with my "assessment of what the scripture means", didn't you? Have you already changed your mind? Or is pure arrogance influencing the way you structured your sentence?

At any rate, you're quite wrong about the text applying equally well to just any old religion that professes belief in the Bible. And it's simply impossible for it to apply to Judaism, because the group it applies to has to profess belief in Jesus as being the messiah. That rules out Judaism.

If you disagree with that statement, please try to clearly explain why you disagree.

See above.

Also, avoid personal insults if you can. Otherwise I will report your posts to an administrator.

It will be awfully hard to do, considering who my opponent is in this thread. However, if you don't open the door then you won't have anything to tattle about. It's up to YOU. You have a history of being antagonistic. So play nice, or the boogie man will definitely get you.

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AuldSoul

Schizm,

First off, it couldn't refer to what is commonly referred to as "Christendom", a religion that's split up into a multitude of denominations.

Firstly, there are literally hundreds of sects in Christendom that claim to be non-denominational. Just because Jehovah's Witnesses make that claim does not mean their claim is correct. For your enlightenment, I will include the definition Merriam-Webster supplies for denomination:

Main Entry: de·nom·i·na·tion
Function: noun
1 : an act of denominating
2 : a value or size of a series of values or sizes (as of money)
3 : NAME, DESIGNATION; especially : a general name for a category
4 : a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body
- de·nom·i·na·tion·al

Perhaps you did not know that Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be a Christian religion, and that their religion is unquestionably arranged denominationally, and that they are therefore a denomination of Christianity (albeit a fringe denomination). One that separates itself from the Catholic church.

Secondly, Christendom is not a religion. If you really think Christendom is a religion, please share why you hold that belief. I am sure it will be a delightful read. Christendom is a compound phrase, a term coined to describe all religions that claim to be part of Christ's dominion. This term also applies to Jehovah's Witnesses, if one believes their dogma. Without question they claim to be part of Christendom by their assertion that their congregations are under the direction of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses (the current name for the headquarters organization).

Thirdly, the Millenial Dawners/Bible Students/Russellites are a direct offshoot (sect) of the Second Adventists who adhered to a largely Millerite doctrine.

Fourthly, the Millenial Dawners/Bible Students/Russellites never disappeared and still exist to this day—they claim that Jehovah's Witnesses are an apostate sect which abandoned the teachings of Pastor Russell.

Don't you mean "our" understanding?

I do indeed, except on the singular point that you see it as applying to a group of people who are arranged as an organization. You read meaning into the verses that I do not get from the verses. As far as the meaning you drew from verse 35 we agree completely. I don't agree with what you read into it, though.

Daniel 11:32-35 — “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed."

I don't see anything about a religion here. Nor an organization of any kind. I see indication of individuals having insight. I would appreciate your pointing out the part that clarifies an organization would be required to fulfill this verse.

Since any specific religion could lay equal claim to this verse applying to their organization, I believe it cannot apply to any organization.

AuldSoul

Schizm

Up above I said with regards to you:

Maybe there's hope for you after all?

I now retract that statement. I laid it out plain and simple for you, but you're incapable of putting two and two together. And why is that? It's obvious that you chose to not hear.

I don't see anything about a religion here. Nor an organization of any kind.

Of course YOU don't. However, for lurkers that may be reading this thread that you initiated I'll offer the reminder that the text of Daniel 11:35 is applicable to Christians who are united as a body, rather than divided such as is Christendom. Also, the text is applicable during a period just prior to the beginning of the "time of the end". And, furthermore, it seems that there's a subtle purpose for the verse concluding with the words "because it [the time of the end] is YET for the time appointed". Better than any other religion those words would well fit the WTS because of its long-heralded mistaken belief that the time of the end has been in progress ever since the year 1914. Of course YOU can't discern it, but I certainly can perceive that THIS error in particular is the chief thing that those certain ones mentioned in the text stumble over, and as a result of their actions a needed refinement is acheived.

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skeptic2

Schizm - surely you can do better than that? Try answering the points AuldSoul raises.

skeptic2

Clarification: I know you tried to answer one of the points, but you didnt offer any evidence to back up your assertions.

Schizm

Clarification: I know you tried to answer one of the points, but you didnt offer any evidence to back up your assertions.

There's much in the Scriptures that require discernment to understand their meaning. You too might try your hand at developing such an ability. First of all though a person must have a healthy respect for the Bible being "God's Word". Do YOU qualify in that regard?

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skeptic2

Lol, you are confirming your inability to answer AuldSoul's points.

Oh, Schizm! (Daniel 11:35)

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