Question about shunning from someone who has never been a JW.... (page 7)

Gunshy

Hi jgnat,

Forgiving should be all the time. Associating with an unrepentant wrongdoer is another story. How many times have I heard, "you're supposed to forgive me!" I do, but I don't have to associate with you.

If we find ourselves not able to get along with anybody except on a public message board, we may have to consider that we might in fact be the reason for that, not the rest of the "fellow slaves".

All who have been disfellowshipped cannot be stopped from entering Kingdom Halls and singing Kingdom Melodies with "fellow slaves". The choice is up to you - go to meetings and continue trying hard to run in such a way to attain the prize, or give up. Nobody can force another to serve our Grand Creator and worship Him in the way that he sees approved.

When we start blaming others and fighting, we are no longer serving our Creator. Even if you are the only one serving God in the hall, should this be a reason for you to stop?

(1 Corinthians 9:24) Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it.

jgnat

Forgiving should be all the time. Associating with an unrepentant wrongdoer is another story. How many times have I heard, "you're supposed to forgive me!" I do, but I don't have to associate with you.

Did Jesus associate with Peter after his betrayal?

My point is you HAVE to communicate to sinners. Otherwise they will not hear the message. And the message can't be just once, it is over and over again. Second chances. Third chances, forty times four chances. Because this is the model that God has provided.

Your general response to Jesus' actions towards sinners was his instruction for disciples to shake out their sandals when encountering an unreceptive audience. I've addressed that a bit, but still I don't see how that single instruction negates his actions towards sinners. Some other unanswered questions:

I wonder if some of those townspeople who originally discarded the disciple's message were in Jerusalem on Pentecost?
A properly shunning witness of Jehovah, would he have made that speech at Pentecost, to a crowd who had screamed "stone him!" only a short time ago?
WHY did God give them another chance?
Why no smoking Christians, dear? We have obese Christians and drinking Christians, and Christians who allow chemotherapy (poisons) to kill off a bigger foe.
I understand the principle of living our bestest, but does a failing in a small instruction negate the whole?
Are you saying that by applying a label, such as "prostitute", "thief" "smoker", or "disassociated" that we can assume they are unreceptive?

AND a new one:

Are there other methods of instruction laid out in the bible other than discipline, and are there other biblical methods of discipline other than shunning?
What are they, and when would they be appropriate?

Gunshy

I'll answer all these questions simply, jgnat...

Do Jehovah and Jesus agree?

This is what Jehovah says...

(2 Corinthians 6:14-18) . . .Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15

Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: "I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people." 17 "‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’"; "‘and I will take YOU in.’" 18 "‘And I shall be a father to YOU, and YOU will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty."

I've communicated with you. Do you agree with this? Yes or no? If you don't, you may find yourself fighting against the Creator of all things.

Gunshy

Peter never betrayed Christ. He denied knowing him -disowning. There's a difference jgnat. Betrayal is going against something. It would be the equivalent of going against Jehovah. That's betrayal. Do you still talk to Jehovah? Do you blame Him for something? These are good questions we might ask ourselves in order to determine our own standing with Him to see if we, in fact might be betraying Him.

SirNose586

In regard to barhopping, consider the following scriptural reference to words of Jesus himself and then ask yourself where "confirmed drunkards" would be... in a bar or in a Kingdom Hall? Where would the "fellow slaves" be found - in a bar or in a Kingdom Hall? Who really are the evil slaves? Where might they be found and would they be building up their "fellow slaves" or publicly criticizing them?*

Funny thing about that. I know personally of two "confirmed drunkards" in my hall who aren't baptized yet. Of the two, one's drinking has caused him to get in trouble with the law, so it really is a problem. Yet, the elders know this and can do nothing against him because he isn't baptized. But once a person gets baptized, he can be set up for shunning, and that's why this kid won't take the plunge.

Why should baptism be such a frightening thing to this kid? He doesn't want to do it because knows he can be cut off from friends he's known all his life if he signs up. If we told people about that when we tried to study with them, how would that impact the conversion rate?

Gunshy

Comparing chemotherapy to smoking is interesting.

When smoking begins destroying cancerous cells, I'll entertain the question.

Can you show me where all in the crowd wanted Jesus stoned? I know you can't. Might you have made that inference though?

Jesus said there would be false Christs and false teachers. He also said they'd be known by their fruits. Have you been trying to bear and display fruitage jgnat? That's a good thing to meditate on. (Lu 8:8) (Ga 5:22-23)

Gunshy

Now Sirnose, I know you're intelligent.

The rich young ruler wouldn't give up his things to follow Jesus. What might that young person in your hall be refusing to give up?

Your beef may not be with the organization as much as it's with Jesus' teachings Sirnose.

(Matthew 19:21-22) . . .Jesus said to him: "If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower." 22

When the young man heard this saying, he went away grieved, for he was holding many possessions.

If you want to help someone, sirnose, help the young man rid himself of the bottle so he can then have no barrier to becoming a follower of Jesus.

It'a so good to see a loving organization that Jehovah is using to help young ones like this, Sirnose.

jgnat

As a corrollary to 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, do Jehovah and Jesus agree?

Acts 10:9 (NWT) The next day as they were pursuing their journey and were approaching the city, Peter went up to the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became very hungry and wanted to eat. While they were preparing, he fell into a trance 11 and beheld heaven opened and some sort of vessel descending like a great linen sheet being let down by its four extremities upon the earth; 12 and in it there were all sorts of four-footed creatures and creeping things of the earth and birds of heaven. 13 And a voice came to him: "Rise, Peter, slaughter and eat!" 14 But Peter said: "Not at all, Lord, because never have I eaten anything defiled and unclean." 15 And the voice [spoke] again to him, the second time: "You stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed." 16 This occurred a third time, and immediately the vessel was taken up into heaven.

Regarding disowning Christ. Is this not a betrayal? Do Jehovah's Witnesses fellowship with people who have denied Christ or stopped following the organization?

Do you still talk to Jehovah?

Yes I do.

Do you blame Him for something?

No. I have questioned Him at length for some of the tragedies I've witnessed, however.

When smoking begins destroying cancerous cells, I'll entertain the question.

You declared that taking poisons in to the body is an unforgivable sin (by declaring that there is no such thing as a smoking Christian). I gave examples of where Christians may take in poisons and not be cast out of the congregation. Chemotherapy drugs was just one example. There's alcohol too. I suggest that while inadvisable, taking in poisons is not an unforgivable sin.

Can you show me where all in the crowd wanted Jesus stoned? I know you can't. Might you have made that inference though?

Are you by inference suggesting that NO-ONE at the celebration of the Pentecost in Jerusalem was also at Jesus' crucifixion?

Gunshy

Judas himself was. what's your point?

jgnat

I am sorry, gunshy, you are going to have to give me more of a hint. Which question or comment are you referring to?

Question about shunning from someone who has never been a JW....

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