The bible is full of contradictions.
I guess jehogie isn't so perfect afterall.
Nuggets from the newest Study book, "WHAT DOES THE BIBLE Really TEACH?"
by jgnat 16 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jgnat
OK, Leolaia, you whet my appetite. I dug around in the dreaded WT-CD (1950-2003) and found 45 references to Luke 10:18. All but three referred to Jesus' commendation of the disciples for their evanglizing work, or to the nature of the devil himself. Here are the only three sections that speak of Jesus' vision of Satan being cast out like lightning (present-tense, right Leolaia?).
The last time this issue was addressed was in 1966 in a Question from Readers. It seems to me the Watchtower has simply decided to interpred Jesus' words for him, in order to make their doctrine fit. Darned that Revelations. The Nicene council shoulda left it off.
Here are the WT quotes. I've highlighted the manipulative language in the QFR, and added my own comments in red.
*** w85 12/15 p. 17 Urgently Needed—More Harvest Workers! ***
Such a fine service report surely thrilled Jesus, for he said: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven." (Luke 10:17, 18) Jesus knew that Satan and his demons were ultimately to be cast out of heaven following the birth of the Messianic Kingdom in the heavens. But while Jesus was yet on earth, this casting out of unseen demons by mere humans served as an added assurance to him of that coming joyful event. Jesus therefore spoke of this future fall of Satan from heaven as a certainty.—Revelation 12:5, 7-10.
*** w72 4/15 p. 232 Mankind’s Deliverance into God’s New Order ***
In reply, what did Jesus Christ say to those jubilant evangelizers? This: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven." (Luke 10:1-18) In a pictorial illustration that he gave at the close of his prophecy on the conclusion of this system of things he foretold the time when he would say these words to goatish people: "Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." (Matt. 24:3; 25:31-33, 41) Three nights later, when telling his faithful apostles of his coming betrayal and violent death on an execution stake, Jesus Christ said:
23 "Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." "The ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me." (John 12:31; 14:30) "Look! Satan has demanded to have you men to sift you as wheat."—Luke 22:31.
*** w66 7/15 p. 447 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers• When Jesus Christ was on earth he stated: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven." (Luke 10:18) Does this mean that by that time Satan the Devil had already been ousted from heaven?—O. B., Australia.
No. We are not Scripturally justified in taking that view of Jesus’ statement recorded at Luke 10:18. Christ was evidently referring to a future event but was moved to do so on the basis of current happenings.
Earlier "the Lord designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come." (Luke 10:1) Upon successfully completing their assignment the seventy disciples returned with joy, saying: "Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name." (Luke 10:17) This was a marvelous display of God’s power over the demons! After such a grand report Jesus was fittingly moved (Here the writer is reading his mind. Only unnamed "celebrated scholars" have this power) to utter his significant words respecting Satan’s fall, words denoting mastery over that wicked one.
That by his words recorded at Luke 10:18 Christ was not referring to any past literal falling of Satan from heaven becomes apparent upon considering what is said elsewhere in the Bible. At Revelation 12:7-9 we are told about the hurling of Satan and his angels from heaven down to the earth. But this did not occur prior to or during (superior prophecy-interpretation here. I wonder if the "celebrated scholars" borrowed the urim and thummim glasses?) the days of Jesus’ human life on earth. It should be noted that the entire book of Revelation consists of prophetic material. It is not a compilation of past history. Revelation 1:1 indicates this, in stating: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John." The apostle John received the revelation on the Isle of Patmos toward the end of the first century of our Common Era, completing the writing of it about 96 C.E. That was many years after Jesus Christ made the statement recorded at Luke 10:18.
A careful examination of Revelation chapter 12 indicates that the ouster of the Devil and his wicked angels from heaven was to follow the birth of God’s kingdom. (Rev. 12:5, 10) As has often been proved Scripturally (where?) in the columns of The Watchtower, the heavenly kingdom with Christ as King was established in 1914 C.E. (and verified by contemporary accounts, newspapers, historical literature? where?) Not long after his installation, Jesus Christ, or Michael, took action and "war broke out in heaven." Michael and angels under him battled with Satan and his angels, casting them out of heaven and down to the earth.
It appears, therefore, that Jesus had in mind (mind reading again. This is a common JW failing. I notice that JW apologists do the same to me) Satan’s ultimately being cast out of heaven when he said: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven." This fall was assured by the fact that the seventy evangelizers though mere men on earth had cast out demons in Jesus’ name. To Jesus this was a sign that Satan was sure to fall from heaven in God’s due time. (conclusion based on repetition, not evidence) To Jesus it was as if he already saw Satan cast out and fallen from heaven. So even then he could speak of this future event as a certainty, as though he saw it already accomplished.(repetition for emphasis) Christ himself, by dying in faithfulness and being resurrected as a mighty spirit creature, would be granted the power to fulfill that prophecy by ousting Satan and the other demons from heaven. In fact, later the exalted Jesus Christ would also abyss and finally destroy these wicked spirit creatures.—Rev. 20:1-3, 7-10; Heb. 2:14; Rom. 16:20.
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Quotes
So... according to WTS doctrine, the "Almighty" is as weak-kneed as those bad parents I see on the TV show "Nanny 911", letting the naughty kids run around and raise hell and do nothing until... "later". Or worse yet, like those pathetic families (on TV's "Intervention") that hide, enable, and promote drug addicts and reward their bad behaviour.
Looking at it another way. If the embodiment of evil gets 6000+ years of "limbo time" before being punished by "The Enforcer", (a punishment which, if we accept the "Evil Spirits" doctrine, still permits these "Spirits" the metaphysical abilities to control time, space, and dimension) I'm *NOT* going to worry about being punished by for my sins. I'll probably get a five minute "time out"... in the year 8026.
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Will Power
nice nugget there jgnat!!
were did the conversation between satan and the mortal jesus take place when satan offered it all to jesus if he'd just "sell his soul"
If god can't be more than one place at time time - how come satan gets all these perks?
who is the almighty one that is being preached about anyway?
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jgnat
I'll probably get a five minute "time out"... in the year 8026.
LOLOLOL.
P.S. How'd I manage to wean you out of hiding, Quotes? Have I hit the appropriate note of sarcasm?
I am also blown away how useless the Lord's Prayer becomes under the WT doctrine.
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jgnat
were did the conversation between satan and the mortal jesus take place
Darned good point. According to JW doctrine, he was supposed to be in heaven wreaking havoc for the next 2000 years.
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Borgia
Here´s the most compelling biblical agument against disfellowshipping and shunning.
Cheers
Borgia