For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled 601 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    And just so you don't have to scroll back and find what I wrote about the Bible clearly showing Neb would never destroy Tyre to the point of it never being rebuilt here it is:

    AlanF and other proponents of 587. If you have mustered up all the information you have to disprove the 40 year desolation of Egypt then your hand is difficient. It is a losing hand and your bluff has failed. It is time to end the charade that you are putting forth on the 40 year desolation of Egypt. Your arguments are silly and this shall now be demonstrated beyond a doubt to honest hearted ones who really want to know the truth and whose agenda is not merely to prove JWs wrong.

    Your argument is that the 40 year desolation is not literal or was not fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar. You base it upon

    1. Egypt does not record such a desolation.

    2. Ezekiel said Neb would destroy Tyre and it would never be rebuilt and this was not literal so likewise Egypt's 40 year desolation.

    As for number 1. Does Egypt record the Exodus? No it does not. Did it happen? That is what the Bible says. Do you believe what the Bible says. History 101 tells us: Just because the nation didn't record a defeat doesn't mean it didn't happen. This is basic. Any good historian will tell you this. You first argument therefore has absolutely no merit whatsoever in the eyes of anyone except those whose agenda is simply to discredit JWs.

    Point number 2. I have explain but I see that you want an in depth explanation that leaves no doubt. Well here it is from, you guessed it, the Bible only.

    As some of you pointed out Ezekiel said that Neb would plunder Tyre and then later on in the verses he said that Tyre would never be rebuilt. To some it might appear that this is what Ezekiel is saying? But was Ezekiel saying Neb would be the one who would destroy it to the point that it would never be rebuilt? The Bible, being in complete harmony, provides the answer for us and leaves no doubt.

    Isaiah chapter 23 provides the answer. “Chaldeans. This is the people... They have erected their siege towers; they have stripped bare her dwelling towers; one has set her as a crumbling ruin. Howl, you ships of Tarshish, for your stronghold [Tyre] has been despoiled.” –verse 13

    Now comes the important point. “And it must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of a prostitute: “Take a harp, go around the city, O forgotten prostitute. Do your best at playing on the strings; make your songs many, in order that you may be remembered.” –verses 14-16

    So Tyre will not be destroyed by the Chaldeans (Babylonians) laying siege to her, but will simply cause her to be “forgotten” for “seventy years”.

    Isaiah continues, “And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre , and she must return to her hire –verses 17

    Clearly Neb was not to be the one to fulfill the scripture that Tyre would not be rebuilt. While this is far more than enough proof there is still more.

    A prophecy made by Zechariah long after Neb's attack on Tyre. Zech 9:3,4, And Tyre proceeded to build a rampart for herself, and to pile up silver like dust and gold like the mire of [the] streets. Look! Jehovah himself will dispossess her, and into the sea he will certainly strike down her military force; and in the fire she herself will be devoured.

    Did Zechariah, Isaiah, or Jehovah believe that Ezekiel was saying that Neb would fulfill the prophecy against Tyre to the point of it never being rebuilt? No they did not.

    But lets look at Egypt and what was said. Read all of Ezekiel 29 and 30. Take note of Ezekiel 30: 10 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘I will also cause the crowd of Egypt to cease by the hand of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon.

    Can you show us from the Bible that the 40 year desolation was not fulfilled by Neb upon Egypt as the scriptures without a doubt show? So far no one has.

    What are you left with.

    Your point number 1 has no merit as all good historians know.

    Your point number 2 about Tyre has been scripturally shown to be in error without a doubt.

    You are left with only one point. The 40 year desolation of Egypt is not literal (although you have never scriptually shown us what it means symbolically) because I will not admit that JWs and 607 are correct.

    What to expect in the next few posts:

    A lot of weeping and gnashing shown in the form of insults, denial, rhetoric, unscriptural statements as if they were fact, and so on. But you know and I know and everyone reading this topic really know that no one has rose to challenge and disproven how the 40 year desolation of Egypt does not prove 607.

  • fullofdoubtnow
    fullofdoubtnow

    3rd w states:

    Well I see you continue to make the same old arguments

    So do you. I have been readiing through your posts on this thread, and you seem to use the same reasoning on every one of them. I also did some research into Egyptian history earlier, and found no mention of the 40 year desolation that you say must have happened because the bible said it would.

    You base your whole claim on secular historians claims of 587.

    And what do you base your claim of 607 on? I already know - a minor religious sect's interpretation of the bible.

    How could any honest person conclude anything different?
    This is a typical jw expression. I've used it myself many times to make a point in the ministry. Well, the fact is 3rdw, many honest people do conclude something differrent, myself included. I would much rather accept the conclusions of secular historians whose only interest is historical fact than those of a group of old men in brooklyn who cling to the 607 date because it's the only one that fits in with their 1914 doctrine. The governing body know that the 607 date is seriously flawed, Ray Franz and others discovered this, and were disfellowshipped not because they were apostates, but because they knew too much. The wts weren't ready to abandon 607 then, and they aren't yet, but when this "system" goes on for another 20 years or so without any sign of ending, and the current gb are all feeding worms, I wouldn't be surprised at them changing their stance on 607 then. That is, if the wts is still around then.
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    thirdwitness reveals in his posts that he is as dishonest and wilfully ignorant as 'scholar'.

    He deliberatley ignores that Tyre still exists using the same original-language name that it had.

    He ignores the clear reading of scriptures like Jeremiah 25:12, Jeremiah 29:10, Ezekiel 40:1 and others which prove that the 70 years were not counted from the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Rather than highlight the bible's veracity that Daniel 1:1 and 2 Kings 25:1 point to the same year, he goes along with the Society's bizarre and baseless 'vassalage' interpretation of 'kingship'.

    He cannot address the fact that the Jews returned in Cyrus' first year, which was 538.

    He makes a mockery of the scriptures by claiming something as literal which cannot possibly be the case.

    He agrees with an interpretation of Ezekiel 26 which requires that verses 5 and 6 be ignored.

    There are so many things wrong with his position that it is laughable. Time for me to go to work.

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Now that we have seen what Isaiah and Zechariah says about Tyre and its destruction let us again examine Ezekiel's prophecy in chapter 26 about Tyre. I think lovers of God's word will be presently surprised with the harmony found in the bible.

    3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. 4 And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. 5 A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea.’

    “‘For I myself have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘and she must become an object of plunder for the nations. 6 And her dependent towns that are in the field—by the sword they will be killed, and people will have to know that I am Jehovah.’

    Lets stop for a moment. Notice that it is not just Babylon that Jehovah is bringing against Tyre. No indeed it is 'many nations'. Ezekiel's words, not mine. Then next Ezekiel prophecies about the first nation that will plunder Tyre.

    7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am bringing against Tyre Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon from the north, a king of kings, with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. 8 Your dependent towns in the field he will kill even with the sword, and he must make against you a siege wall and throw up against you a siege rampart and raise up against you a large shield; 9 and the strike of his attack engine he will direct against your walls, and your towers he will pull down, with his swords. 10 Owing to the heaving mass of his horses their dust will cover you. Owing to the sound of cavalryman and wheel and war chariot your walls will rock, when he comes in through your gates, as in the cases of entering into a city opened by breaches. 11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample down all your streets. Your people he will kill even with the sword, and to the earth your own pillars of strength will go down.

    End of the specific prophecy about Neb and what he would do to Tyre. How do we know this is the end of this specific part of the prophecy about Tyre? Because notice the pronoun now changes from he (as in Neb) to they (as in many nations).

    12 And they will certainly spoil your resources and plunder your sales goods, and tear down your walls, and your desirable houses they will pull down. And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.’

    13 “‘And I will cause the turmoil of your singing to cease, and the very sound of your harps will be heard no more. 14 And I will make you a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what you will become. Never will you be rebuilt; for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

    Then the rest of the verses continue to show what will happen to Tyre. So you see your whole theory that Ezekiel was wrong when he said Neb would destroy Tyre to the point of never being rebuilt is unscriptural not only according to Isaiah and Zechariah but even in the very prophecy of Ezekiel that you try to support it with. Ezekiel never said Neb would devastate Tyre to the point of never being rebuilt. It was 'many nations' that would carry out this prophecy.

    I think that pretty much is a slam dunk.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Thirdwitness,

    A lot of weeping and gnashing shown in the form of insults, denial, rhetoric.....

    Yes, but I notice that your delivery is beginning to improve, please be patient with yourself.

    HS

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    thirdwitless said:

    : Ezekiel never said Neb would devastate Tyre to the point of never being rebuilt. It was 'many nations' that would carry out this prophecy.

    : I think that pretty much is a slam dunk.

    It certainly is, since the rebuilt Tyre sits there, obstinately declaring "Here I am!"

    Your ignoring all arguments set before you well illustrates the general moral stupidity induced in JWs by years of Watchtower indoctrination.

    Except that you're quite an anomaly in that you promote apostate views about the meaning of the 70 years for Tyre, even while railing against your fellow apostates. Are you trying to outdo Robert King?

    AlanF

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    thirdwitness, STOP changing the bible to suit your needs. This is what is written. From the bible you use, in its entirety

    Ezekiel 26:1-21

    1 And it came about in the eleventh year, on the first [day] of the month, that the word of Jehovah occurred to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, for the reason that Tyre has said against Jerusalem, ‘Aha! She has been broken, the doors of the peoples! The trend will certainly be to me. I shall be filled—she has been devastated,’ 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. 4 And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. 5 A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea.’

    “‘For I myself have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘and she must become an object of plunder for the nations. 6 And her dependent towns that are in the field—by the sword they will be killed, and people will have to know that I am Jehovah.’

    7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am bringing against Tyre Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon from the north, a king of kings, with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. 8 Your dependent towns in the field he will kill even with the sword, and he must make against you a siege wall and throw up against you a siege rampart and raise up against you a large shield; 9 and the strike of his attack engine he will direct against your walls, and your towers he will pull down, with his swords. 10 Owing to the heaving mass of his horses their dust will cover you. Owing to the sound of cavalryman and wheel and war chariot your walls will rock, when he comes in through your gates, as in the cases of entering into a city opened by breaches. 11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample down all your streets. Your people he will kill even with the sword, and to the earth your own pillars of strength will go down. 12 And they will certainly spoil your resources and plunder your sales goods, and tear down your walls, and your desirable houses they will pull down. And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.’

    13 “‘And I will cause the turmoil of your singing to cease, and the very sound of your harps will be heard no more. 14 And I will make you a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what you will become. Never will you be rebuilt; for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

    15 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said to Tyre, ‘At the sound of your downfall, when the fatally wounded one groans, when there is a killing with slaughter in the midst of you, will not the islands rock? 16 And down from their thrones all the chieftains of the sea will certainly come and remove their sleeveless coats, and they will strip off their own embroidered garments. They will put on trembling spells. Upon the earth they will sit down, and they will certainly tremble every moment and stare in amazement at you. 17 And they must raise up over you a dirge and say to you:

    “‘“How you have perished, that used to be inhabited from the seas, O praised city, who became a strong one in the sea, she and those inhabiting her, those who gave their terror to all the inhabitants [of the earth]! 18 Now the islands will tremble in the day of your downfall. And the islands that are in the sea must be disturbed owing to your going out.”’

    19 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘When I make you a devastated city, like the cities that are actually not inhabited, when [I] bring up over you the watery deep, and the vast waters will have covered you, 20 I will also bring you down with those going down into the pit to the people of long ago, and I will cause you to dwell in the lowest land, like places devastated for a long time, with those going down into the pit, in order that you may not be inhabited; and I will put decoration in the land of those alive.

    21 “‘Sudden terrors are what I shall make you, and you will not be; and you will be sought for, but you will no more be found to time indefinite,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”

    It doesn't matter which why you phrase it, this did not happen.

    steve

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness


    Funny thing isn't it. I show you how you are absolutely and totally wrong about what Ezekiel said about Tyre and what are your replies. All you can do is ignore my argument and declare me an apostate trying to outdo Robert King, and ignoring all your arguments when I have clearly and solidly debunk your outlandish and unreasonable and unbiblical arguments.

    You say: Your ignoring all arguments set before you well illustrates the general moral stupidity induced in JWs by years of Watchtower indoctrination.

    Except that you're quite an anomaly in that you promote apostate views about the meaning of the 70 years for Tyre, even while railing against your fellow apostates. Are you trying to outdo Robert King?

    Then Alan and Steve say:

    ... the rebuilt Tyre sits there, obstinately declaring "Here I am!"

    It doesn't matter which why you phrase it, this did not happen.

    So you are now reduced to one point and that point involves declaring the Bible to be wrong. You prove our point. 587 proponents must disregard the Bible to prove 587. You say that Tyre was rebuilt and that the prophecy was wrong.

    The mainland ruins of old Tyre and the underwater ruins of Island Tyre is good enough for me. If you want to quivel and split hairs with Jehovah as to what he meant when he said Tyre would never be rebuilt, then have at it. My advice to others is don't stand to close to you.

    alt

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Okay, lets look at the text again. And note the quotation marks and the plural to see who Ezekiel's prophecy is refering to.

    7 "For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said,

    (‘)Here I am bringing against Tyre Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon from the north, a king of kings, with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. 8 Your dependent towns in the field he will kill even with the sword, and he must make against you a siege wall and throw up against you a siege rampart and raise up against you a large shield; 9 and the strike of his attack engine he will direct against your walls, and your towers he will pull down, with his swords. 10 Owing to the heaving mass of his horses their dust will cover you. Owing to the sound of cavalryman and wheel and war chariot your walls will rock, when he comes in through your gates, as in the cases of entering into a city opened by breaches. 11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample down all your streets. Your people he will kill even with the sword, and to the earth your own pillars of strength will go down. 12 And they will certainly spoil your resources and plunder your sales goods, and tear down your walls, and your desirable houses they will pull down. And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.(')

    Also with you methodology of liguistics verse 10 would imply a single chariot and horse.

    Stop your apostate renditioning of what it written.

    steve

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    thirdwitness, what the hell are you smoking?!?!?! Really, what is it?

    The mainland ruins of old Tyre and the underwater ruins of Island Tyre is good enough for me. If you want to quivel and split hairs with Jehovah as to what he meant when he said Tyre would never be rebuilt, then have at it. My advice to others is don't stand to close to you.

    steve

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