Good warning pete. I thought they had better fraud policies than that but I guess not. Sorry to hear what happened to you I hope more people take heed and avoid the same.
Paypal sucks
by peacefulpete 22 Replies latest jw friends
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Mulan
I use PayPal all the time for my business. It's how my customers pay me. I also use it if I buy something from ebay or the many other online sites that use PayPal.
Read your agreement! You agreed to everything that happened to you.
I've only had two issues with them and it turned out fine. A customer claimed she never got a package from me and disputed the payment. It went on for weeks. Eventually they ruled in her favor and I then learned that her package had been returned by the post office for some reason, to my supplier, and my PayPal account had been credited.
The other was for a package sent to Germany that was refused by customs for entry (nutritional supplements). It was worth over $200. I told the customer I wouldn't refund because I had informed her it probably wouldn't clear customs and I couldn't refund to her if that happened. That dispute lasted months. Finally, she paid to have the package returned to me, rather than destroyed, and she got her refund.
I think PayPal is great and I couldn't operate as easily without it.
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Odrade
I also got taken, (fortunately for a relatively small amount,) by paypal. Their fraud department is ridiculous and ineffectual. The seller sent me an insured package, which never showed up. I got a formal confirmation from the P.O. that the package was never delivered, and the seller refused to either file a claim, or give me the info I needed to file a claim.
Because I had insured the item, I filed a fraud claim with paypal and ebay, but they refused to investigate. Bottom line, I lost my $. Seller has my $. I have no product.
This has not been my first negative experience with paypal/ebay. I use them as little as possible, though sometimes it is unavoidable. -
peacefulpete
Mulan, I also have used paypal many times and as I said it has worked fine. The issue here is the fact that they hold the power to decide when to give a seller or buyer the refund, doing so arbitrarily in my case. There is supposed to be protection for buyers from auction items not being as described, there isn't. There was no doubt in my mind that I would get a refund, that is what made the ruling completely insane. I did, by using paypal, authorize them to make rulings, but in good faith I believed they would at least consider the facts.
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Simon
I don't like how eBay/PayPal are so quick to drop people in it. IMO they are far more responsible for what goes on in their market than they want to be.
I haven't personally had a problem with either but I am very very cautious.
What I think most people don't understand is that you effectively become a merchant and whenever fraud takes place the banks always make the merchant foot the bill (as well as extra costs).
In this case it seems like it's the other way round but personally I would never buy anything so big without seeing it in person first.
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JWdaughter
Hi, I have an Ebay business (Smiling Moon Books and More) and I have not had any paypal issues in over 320 transactions. However, I am cautious, and I do transfer my monies out regularly since I read about various frauds perpetrated and such.
I have had one bad feedback that was unjustified and retracted, and I think Ebay is doing some serious re-vamping of the feedback process(I recently filled out a long survey on the subject) which I hope will include arbitration of some sort before neg. feedback can be left.
Just to let you know-most sellers are conscientious and want the best for their customers and reputation. ALWAYS read feedback before you make a purchase. I have NOT made several purchases based on seller feedback. Sellers I know would be mortified at anything less than 99%(everyone being entitled to one screw up) but some sellers have very low scores, and anything below a 95% should be carefully scrutinised IMO. Happy shopping.
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peacefulpete
To update, I found that the reason they ruled for the seller without considering the facts was they have a "policy" of always ruling with the seller in disputes about vehicles or firearms! I could not believe my ears. I reminded them that Ebay Motors in their Buyer Services and Protection section on the Deposits and Down payments page explicitly says that Ebay recommends Paypal for vehicle deposits BECAUSE they offer buyer protection unlike other wire services ike Western Union. Paypal now claims they are not responsible for what Ebay says and Ebay in turn says Paypal wrote the page and therefore it is a Paypal issue!What kills me is in the emails and phone calls over the past month, not once was this "policy" of not protecting vehicle deposits mentioned! I would have struck some deal with the crooked seller and cut my loses.
BTW...FEEDBACK means nothing. You can buy positive feedbacks online for a small fee or do it yourself with a little computer savy. If you see the feedback is glowing all the time suspect the seller is bogus.
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moshe
I have never gotten bitten by Paypal, but I only accept checks for some auction items, if I think the fraud index with paypal by a buyer might be high. My son has already been scammed by some buyers. Lately , I have started using Craigslist for items that have general appeal and only sell them locally- saves the ebay fees,too!. I have a relative who just started an ebay resell store- She doesn't have a clue what kind of problems she has waiting for her. Sellers will misrepresent the item to the ebay store for a higher auction price. Then the unhappy buyer will file a complaint with paypal and the ebay store will suffer a chargeback to their account. Meanwhile the seller who sold the item has their 70% of the sales price and is long gone. Most ebay stores I have seen close up within a year- it's not easy money. Thanks for the tip on the ebay vehicle deposit at close of auction scam. I have seen the $250-$500 deposit at close of auction plenty of times- I never considered the downside. Thanks for the tip.
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JWdaughter
The reason why one should carefully scrutinize feedback-people can make up other names and buy one cent items all over and leave positive feedback. Check out the actual listings and prices etc. You will catch on to scams when all the previous feedback givers have very few feedbacks-if any. Glowing isn't nec. false-most of mine are very positive and I have earned every single one! But use discretion! Very new with only new people giving feedback-bad sign. My store is 8 mos old now, and while it may close(fees structure is changing)it won't be paypal related. I wouldn't give up on ebay, but I would be SO cautious when buying big ticket items. Whoever or wherever you are buying it. Be careful with craigslist too-there have been robberies and other things related to that. Its a crazy world. Eyes wide open!
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peacefulpete
Well, an update to that long ago case. I won in court and got my deposit back no help from Paypal.
Now....I went ahead and resumed using Ebay and Paypal to sell tools and material from my now closed watchmaking business. I sold a $2000 lathe to a guy in Japan using the new international seller hub program. I was told I was only responsible to get it to Kentucky and they assumed responsibility for the rest. Not quite true.
The buyer simply declared the 100 year old lathe "not as described" without needing to provide any evidence of this. He said in the messages to me he simply changed his mind and needed the money for a different one he found. In fact it was described accurately and pics were taken so show any minor issues. Everything shown and described was included.
Ebay then tells me, when a buyer declares "not as described" nothing I said or shown would make a difference. I asked if I had said it was a "complete piece of junk do not buy", he would still win a "not as described" case.
Anyway to keep this 8 month ordeal short, Ebay ruled in his favor then reversed then reversed again, I was then told I was responsible to pay the $800 shipping (he wanted it sent Fedex) to get it back and refund the buyers $800 he spent to get it to him. They demanded I supply a label through message board. and do it in 3 days or loose lathe and the money. I found the better rates were through Japan Post not the Fedex he used. However, I couldn't buy a label unless I opened an account and they needed a domestic address. A sympathetic high value agent allowed me to send the money for Japan Post by Paypal rather than provide a Fedex label.
The buyer supposedly sent the lathe and it gets lost.
Ebay eventually rules in my favor BECAUSE he bought he label! If I had provided the label I would have lost the lathe and the money he paid for the label the shipping, everything.
Fast forward 2 months, the buyer does a chargeback on his credit card and Paypal. Ebay says they have seller protection but they have no say in what Paypal does. I closed my paypal account, changed my credit card number, closed my bank account. They said they can simply sue.
Get this... the box arrived Sat!. I have not opened it to see what is actually inside (I have 2 stories of fake returns with empty box or books) it weighs 10lbs less than when I sent it. The Post Office says I can refuse delivery if unopened and it will return to him. I thought it might help the outcome of the case if they saw it was returning to him. Problem is eBay advised me to not do that as I may lose the case and have to refund the buyer $2800 and not have the lathe (if it is inside and complete).
I actually collected about $1650 of the $2000 from the sale, the rest was ebay fees. I asked that if I lose the case with Paypal would ebay refund my fees and they said no, the case was closed too long ago. So, I stand to lose $2000 that he paid ebay, a $2000 lathe, and about $1400 in shipping both ways if I refuse it, and send it back. Remember I collected $1650 for a net loss of about $3750.
If I don't refuse it and open it I stand to lose the $2000 he spent plus the $1400 in shipping both ways but might have the lathe and $1650 for a net loss of $1750. (Assuming the lathe is complete and intact.). I'd feel bad if the buyer suffers loss, but he was unreasonable and willing to impose huge losses on me for no just cause.
Not sure how this will end.
In short do not sell on ebay anything where the shipping (both ways) is more than you are willing to lose. AND know that whoever buys the label is responsible for return shipping loss. Also know that winning a case on Ebay does not end the matter if the buyer used a credit card or Paypal.