We are a Return Visit for the Mormans

by Bonnie_Clyde 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Justin
    Justin

    The tenets of Mormonism were supposedly revealed to the prophet Joseph Smith over a period of years. The Book of Mormon, though it has been recognized as the classic text (Smith having found the plates in the Hill Cumorrah in New York), was only the first of these revelations and is, for the most part, quite orthodox. (It is the supposed history in the book which in questionable, including a visit by Jesus Christ to the Americas.) The full revelation developed over the years, and the final doctrinal structure was expressed by Smith in a funeral talk given for King Follett (a disciple) shortly before Smith's own death at the hands of a mob.

    Smith claimed that God was once a mortal man, and is now an exalted man. That all people who have ever lived were originally spirits with God, and our present incarnation in flesh is to enable us to become Gods ourselves. Such deification is offered to those who marry in a Mormon temple ceremony and have children, thus perpetuating the incarnational and deification processes. Such beliefs led to the practice of polygamy (now discontinued), and the current emphasis on family life. Early Mormons were looking for the coming of God's kingdom, and this was to be fulfilled by following the directions from Smith's revelations. This necessitated the setting up of a theocratic state, and resulted in repeated persecutions during Smith's lifetime until, after his death, "the Saints" (as they were called) were forced under the leadership of Brigham Young to settle in the (then) isolated area which has since become the State of Utah where the theocratic experiment could proceed. When Western expansion in the USA lead to Utah's absorption into the Union, and Federal law resulted in a crackdown on polygamy, the Mormons could no longer be geographically isolated. This, in turn, meant that they had to isolate themselves spiritually by strict observances imposed by the leadership - and in this way were similar to JWs. Yet, the Mormons relate to the larger culture in a way which JWs do not.

    So . . . read the Book of Mormon. Though you'll find it quite boring, and it is intimidating when the missionaries tell you that, by praying over it, you'll be convinced of its divine inspiration - this is important because you'll see that the book in itself does not support the fully developed Mormon religion.

    Mormon America: The Power and the Promise was written by Richard N. Ostling and Joan K. Ostling, and published by HarperCollins. Written by non-Mormons, the book covers Mormon history, theology and practice.

    No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith the Mormon Prophet by Fawn M. Brodie (originally in 1945 but still in print) is a classic by an ex-Mormon taking a critical view of Smith's life and career.

    Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition by Jan Shipps - a woman who moved to Utah, took up an interest in Mormonism (but not converting), and became a religious scholar in her own right. Her thesis is that Mormonism is a new religion which springs from, but is distinct from Christianity - similar to Christianity's being distinct from Judaism. This is not an easy read, but may give additional insights.

    There is plenty of information on the internet - and in fact Mormonism is considered by many to be the "other" great American cult (other than JWs) - and there is no reason why anyone should be lead step by step into a conversion if they are wary of this religion.

  • parakeet
    parakeet

    I may get flamed again for recommending this book, but I'll risk it.
    "Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith" by Jon Krakauer recounts Mormon history from its beginnings with Joseph Smith to the present-day splinter fundamentalist groups, one of which has been in the news lately. Although Qcmbr ridicules the author ("Krackpot Kraky"), Krakauer is a respected author who has appeared on CNN and other networks recently as an expert on Mormon fundamentalist groups, Warren Jeffs' notorious group in particular.
    It's a fascinating book and I recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about Mormon history and beliefs -- both the standard LDS Church and its many splinter sects.

  • mckay
    mckay

    " "Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith" by Jon Krakauer recounts Mormon history from its beginnings with Joseph Smith to the present-day splinter fundamentalist groups,....."

    Yes, very good. Or try "Blood of the Prophets" Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Will Bagley. That is good for a history of Mormomism in the 1800s in Utah, that is if you don't mind reading about the massacre about 127 women, children and men. All carried out by men of the Mormon Priesthood after Brigham Young set the stage for the event.

    mckay

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Two young LDS called on me and offered me the book of Mormon. I said I would like to take it as a reference book but I wasn't interested in studying or becoming Mormon. I am just interested in understanding the history of how different cultures developed their belief systems and religious practices. Well, I guess that made me a return visit because they kept coming back. I would listen to them because they reminded me of myself as a young pioneer. So sincere and zealous. Plus they were sweet and likeable.

    I gave them a run for their money though. I would ask them why Joseph Smith wrote much of the Book of Mormon in olde english which was not in current use at the time of his writing, lifting many phrases directly out of the King James Version of the Bible. I also asked them why the archeological and anthropological records show no evidence of a lost tribe of Israel migrating to America or even of them existing where they were supposed to have originated from. They didn't have any answers, they gave me websites and book titles to look up if I was interested in archeological proof. However, they warned me against looking at anti-Mormon sites and told me it was not necessary to do this research to know the book of Mormon was a divine revelation. All, I had to do was read a couple of key scriptures and pray for God to open my heart. I told them I had done so, and it didn't convince me. They said they just "know" it is true. I told them they are going to have to do a little better than that. They just looked at me with a mixture of sadness and pity. I'm guessing they wrote me off because my heart was not rightly disposed to "see" the truth of what Joseph Smith revealed.

    The ironic thing about this is these conversations caused me to examine Witness teachings and how I "know" what I know is true and demand the same standard of evidence. Of course they couldn't stand up either. So, in a way, the Mormon's were instrumental in me leaving the Witnesses. Life is funny sometimes!

    Cog

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere


    This thread is sad because of the many ignorant comments being made against a people whom most of you seem to know nothing about other than some rumors you've heard or read but never bothered to check out for yourselves. Then when someone who actually is a practicing Mormon suggests your information is less than correct, you mock us and say we are brainwashed, or don't know our own religion, or some other such tripe. Very disrespectful of you.

    JimTX, you said:

    While visiting the 'temple', I learned something that was a bit disconcerting to me... and that is that if a Mormon family wants to - they can get 'baptized' (I believe that's the term) - in the name of an ancester - and be 'joined' to them - supposedly for when they die and go to heaven.


    Not sure that bit makes sense in type - but basically - if I understood it correctly - they can get great-grandmaw 'joined' to the Mormons - even after she's dead and long gone - even if she wasn't a Mormon - or didn't want anything to do with them.

    Of course... I saw it as a really cool con that the Mormons have figured out - cause you know that there is a 'fee' involved for this 'service'.

    Well, no. There is not one red cent charged as a fee for this service. You don't even have to be Mormon to have it done, if you want it, though Mormons would be the ones doing the work for you. As with all that we do, Temple work is free. The workers volunteer their time. Nobody makes us do that. It is a free choice.

    You can also spend a fortune buying geneology how-to books, taking classes, hiring geneologists to research your lines, and so on. Or you can go online to the LDS (Mormon) website and download the free programs that enable anyone to do the research. You can go to any of the thousands of Family History Centers for free, use their computers for free, have the volunteers there assist you for free. You can even go to the huge main center in Salt Lake and use their geneological facilities at no charge.

    We also host Preparedness Fairs, open to the public at no charge, with information that will help people with practical matters such as how to make out a Living Will, how to care for elderly relatives, or other needful information everyone might need. If you don't want to attend such events, the same information is available online at the same website. You don't even need to give any personal information to obtain it, so nobody will bother you.

    I know it's a foreign concept to many people, but some people actually do try to do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do.

    Susan

  • oldflame
    oldflame
    2) I believe they also practice shunning. Does anyone know how severe?



    I did some work for a doctor several years back. I told him I was an excommunicated Mormon and that maybe he should not use me to do his remodeling on his office. He said why would that matter ? I replied that I know the JW's shun their members who have fallen away and I thought they did also as I never had been in a situation when I was in where I could remember shunning an ex Mormon. He said we do not shun ex members because we believe that it is by our love for them that we believe brings them back. I was impressed with this answer but not enough to go get involved with them because they are another cult just like the JW's.

    A couple of years ago I had to Mormon Missionaries come to my door. I asked them if it would be okay if I got my bible ? They agreed to it. I came back asked them if they would like something to drink they did not except and that was okay. I asked them if they believe that Jesus was the grace by which we are saved ? I already knew their answer as I was one once too. They said yes he is and we believe that. I said so if a person excepts Jesus as their personal saviour and lives a life according to the laws set by God that why would not that person be granted the gift that is promised. (Eternal Life) They both stood up and said our work is done here and I never seen them again.

    I was baptised when I was fourteen and excommunicated at 19 for wanting to marry the mother of my son before he was born. I told the Bishop that I felt guilty about my son being born without married parents. He excommunicated me for fornication..They first tried to remove my pregnant girlfriend from my house. They came over one night shortly after I had went to the Bishop and told me that she had to leave now ! I was pissed, I had a walking tall club that sat next to my front door and I pulled it up and said step one foot in my front door and I'll take your freakin head off. They left and a week later I got the excommunication papers in the mail.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Oldflame - I'm sorry you felt treated incorrectly - in cases of a similar nature that I've known about we tend to bend over backwards to arrange a free wedding for the individuals in your position - I wouldn't recommend though threatening as a sign of repentence - in fact although I think you chose the right thing to do (marriage - but I say that without any understanding about whether this actually would be the right thing to do regarding love, ability to raise a child, emotional stability or financial ability) but you didn't seem at worried by the actual initial sin - you seem to have actually warranted excommunication which is normally the course taken when someone is unrepentent (young people who are repentent tend to be disfellowshipped but nothing more and that amounts to being unable to take the sacrament and not participating actively in meetings.) Feel free to clarify.

    You can look at the history of the LDS church from several viewpoints:

    1/ Christian - but then a cursory look at any christian history finds the Moses murders (how many first born, Egyptian soldiers, task overseer, Israelites though summary execution, indigenous peoples in genocide and people picking up sticks), the shocking polygamous affairs of the anointed and sexual shenanigans of daughters sleeping with their Father (who remains a prophet), bribery by a Prophet to keep a whore (who was actually his relative)quiet, apostles arguing over who is greatest, one apostles openly denying Christ 3 times(greatest sin?) yet still leading church thereafter, an apostle betraying the Saviour for money then committing suicide. Let's break this down even more specifically:
    Catholics and Protestants - how many wars? burning at the stake? torture to extract confession? Corrupt popes, kings, queens, clergy, sale of indulgences, praying to saints, pogroms, preaching by the sword and all the other shame that has been poured down on christianity but of course isn't mentioned.
    Modern day child churches of the above: Corrupt paid preachers on TV, alteration of bible teachings at will (but no let's pick on any doctrine of the LDS we don't like and be a little hypocritical), absolute denial of modern day revelation as a source of information (where are their prophets? - why are there so many churches all vying for converts without any recognizable authority?), Millerism madness (false prophets anyone?), fundamentalist denial of truth (6 day creationists).

    2/ Other religions - Wars galore, suppression of women, violent application of religious law, mutilation as devotion, genocide, promotion and veneration of man made idols.

    3/ Non-believers - why start with the LDS - the madness surely is most easily laid at the foot of Jewish messianic prophesies and the one who pretended to fulfill them. Of course many non-believers have identified religions they don't like as a fundamental problems and historically have tried to wipe them out (Hitler, Communist society, the beloved US government V LDS, Bosnians, Darfur). I don't think modern day capitalist society can sit in any kind of moral judgement upon anybody.

    So those who love to read books opposed to the Mormon church do you feel any shame or disgust for the crimes perpetrated upon Mormon society by your representatives:

    Murders, rapes, theft, tarring and feathering, burning of sacred religious sites, forced genocidal expulsions (twice) with wholesale theft of property, ordering an unjust war against these people (yes - lovers of US freedom - your government went to war against a whole religion - unthinkable in the country set up to protect (religious) freedoms), forcing an entire people to flee across the plains of America deep in Indian territory where they were attacked and harrassed by the locals. If all you can come up with is the polygamy issue and the absolutely unproven leadership links to the Mountain Meadows Massacre then I'll stick with the good guys.

    P.S. You owe us a couple of stolen counties please.

  • oldflame
    oldflame

    Qcmbr,

    I am not angry at the Mormons for their decision to excommunicate me, infact it is just the opposite it was the best thing that ever happened to me. With what I know today about cult faiths it is a damn good thing I am not a Mormon just like I am happy as a clam not being involved in cult faiths and the Mormons fit right in there with the rest.

    I only threatened them when they thought they were going to enter my home against my will to remove the woman whom I had been living with for some time. The mother of my child. It was my responsibility to take care of her and not the Morons.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I've never known of any case when forceable removal of individuals was undertaken by the church (my uncle once forceably removed someone who was stalking my wife to be but that's family legend.) Sounds very much to me as though you had already left the LDS church in all but name.

  • praiseband
    praiseband

    Q- how are you? You and I have had friendly dialogues in the past and I hope it will always be that way. I agree with you, that violence against others to force your religious beliefs on them is wrong. The Christian church has a lot to be ashamed of in its past. However, even your Mormon heritage (as in prior to Joseph Smith) has the very same background. Your church says the Bible is one of the sacred books and this Biblical history is a part of your heritage also. So, I hope you weren't referring to only the other churches who call themselves Christian in item #1. Next, you asked "why are there so many churches all vying for converts without any recognizable authority?" There is a recognizable authority in Christian churches and it is Jesus Christ. No one else. That is what separates us in our beliefs. I joined this website so I could learn about others, not to be combative. I believe it is quite possible for people to have discussions without being mean-spirited or vicious. Most of the time on this website it is that way, and even very humorous! I have learned much and hope to continue.

    Praise

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit