thirdwitness and other pseudo-scholars: Let's discuss the Hillah Stele

by AuldSoul 124 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    thirdwitness and other pseudo-scholars,

    Firstly, I offer this disclaimer: I am not a scholar. But I can add and subtract. I knew how to do that two years before I stepped foot into kindergarten.

    Secondly, the reason for challenging you lot to this discussion is that it will test your scholarly mettle in an environment untouched by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. While some of the documents supporting the Hillah Stele (Nabon. No. 8) are mentioned by the WTS, the Hillah Stele itself is never mentioned. With very good reason, as it turns out.

    Thirdly, we need to set out terms and stipulations to which we can all agree regarding reference to Ancient Near East (ANE) data. I suggest, as a minimal framework, the following:

    • "Primary document/evidence" refers to a document/piece of evidence contemporary to the events to which it relates. "Secondary document/evidence" refers to derivations from primary, and so on.
    • Berossus was NOT contemporary to the historical events he described and was therefore, at best, a secondary source of evidenciary information. Josephus works are either tertiary or even more greatly removed from primary sources and, at very best, are a secondary source of Berossus works (therefore, automatically at least a tertiary source of the works Berossus used).
    • Babylon fell to Cyrus in 539 BC, and both Belshazzar and Nabonidus were killed within this year.
    • Seleucid period and later ANE documents/evidences are, at best, suspect because of temporal displacement from the actual occurrences. Not being contemporary, they are more prone to error.

    If we cannot agree to any/all of these, please explain clearly why not.

    The Hillah Stele (Nabon. No. 8)

    Noteworthy Features:

    1. Bears an astronomical observation so precise that with several thousand years it could only have been made between May 31 and June 4, 555 BC.
    2. Specifies that it is made in the 1st regnal year of Nabonidus.
    3. Specifies an order to repair a temple at Harran that was destroyed by "Manda" of the Medes.
    4. Specifies that the temple's destruction occurred 54 years earlier.
    5. A primary document that supercedes anything from the Seleucid period or later in evidenciary weight.

    Supporting/corroborating documents:

    • Adda-Guppi Stele (Nabon. H1, A & B and Nabon. H2, A & B): Adda-Guppi (a.k.a. Adad-Guppi, Adad-Gruppi) was the daughter of Assurbanipal II, King of Assyria. She was a priestess of Sin serving at the temple of Sin at Harran. She was the mother of Nabonidus. Her life spanned the entire period from the downfall of the Assyrian empire into the reign of Nabonidus. She was famous enough to have her auto-biography published (as it were) and apparently displayed post-mortem at the entrance to the temple of Sin. This primary document confirms that the attack on the temple of Sin at Harran by Umman-Manda of the Medes occurred during Nabopolassar's 16th regnal year, and is delivered as an eyewitness account. Adda-Guppi was an extraordinarily long-lived woman, among ANE peoples.
    • B.M. 21901: This primary document confirms that the "sack of Harran" by Umman-Manda of the Medes occurred during Nabopolassar's 16th regnal year.

    Conclusive Reasoning:

    • 555 BC (per Feature #1) + 54 years (per Feature #4) = 609 BC;
    • Therefore, 609 BC = Nabopolassar's 16th regnal year (per two independent primary supporting documents, one of which was an eyewitness account);
    • Therefore, the entire period from Nabopolassar's 16th regnal year to 539 BC covers no more than 71 years, in toto, regardless how you assign the reigns or the years you attribute to various rulers;
    • The last year of Nabonidus was 539 BC and 1st regnal year of Nabonidus is fixed absolutely by the Hillah Stele as 555 BC; the 16th year of Nabopolassar being 54 years prior to Nabonidus' first regnal year (according to the Hillah Stele and two unassailably reliable, independent, primary documents.
    • Therefore, no matter how many extra kings you stick in the list between Nabopolassar's 16th regnal year and 539 BC the sum total of years of reign remains constant, it cannot exceed 71 years.

    None of this has anything to do with a Watchtower Society viewpoint, as they have chosen to never publicly acknowledge the existence of the Hillah Stele (with very good reason). Without getting sidetracked from the secular data available regarding the Hillah Stele, why should I not credit the conclusion I reached as a valid one absent direct primary evidences to the contrary?

    I don't expect a direct answer, but I remain hopeful that one of you will surprise me.

    AuldSoul

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    I don't see the "celebrated scholors" coming out on the field of honor yet, AuldSaul -

    But, what a fascinating subject! I am doing some reading on this myself -

    http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/freebook/ebmyth/ch1.html

    - just as a start...James

  • fullofdoubtnow
    fullofdoubtnow

    No takers from the jw apologist community yet, I see.

    Actually, I have been looking at some info on the Hillah Stele just now, and I'm not surprised the wts don't acknowledge it. I would imagine any committed jw who knows anything about it would feel a little uncomfortable trying to discuss the topic.

    Mind you AuldSoul, you said you aren't expecting a direct answer, and I doubt you will get one.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Actually I'd be very surprized even disappointed if thirdwitness doesn't respond to this thread. I predict his answer will be something like: "You ungodly apostate idiots are always wrong because you trust secular data over the Bible!" or something along those lines.

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    Yes, how dare we accept historical facts over Jehovah's word.

  • kls
    kls

    bttt

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    thirdwitness: Auldsoul, Can you be more specific about Hil[ll]a stele. For example, provide some links to it and the other bm's you talk about. I know the WTS has address the Nab's mother chronicle and its inconsistencies.

    Odd. The WTS hasn't used the names Adda-Guppi, Adad-Guppi or any other accepted variant in any publications contained in the Watchtower Library CD-ROM.

    The extent of this document's contents as related by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society are erroneously presented as being in support of Ptolemy's Canon of Kings. While the list of kings contained in the Adda-Guppi Stele is consistent with Ptolemy's Canon of Kings, the support is lent to Ptolemy's list since the Adda-Guppi is a primary evidence and Ptolemy' Canon of Kings is, at very best, only a secondary evidence.

    *** kc p. 186 Appendix to Chapter 14 ***
    Nabonidus Harran Stele (NABON H 1, B): This contemporary stele, or pillar with an inscription, was discovered in 1956. It mentions the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar. The figures given for these three agree with those from Ptolemy’s Canon.

    As to any "inconsistencies" inherent in the Adda-Guppi Stele, please refer to any publication wherein the WTS has discussed these. There are no inconsistencies in the Adda-Guppi Stele, so I am fascinated by your recollection of a discussion of these. Are we about to witnesses a retraction from you, thirdwitness, or will you follow the example of your leaders and obfuscate any false statements into oblivion as though they never occurred?

    The only Watchtower reference to the Harran Stele (i.e. Adda-Guppi Stele) is found in the January, 15, 1965 issue, Watchtower Bound Volume, p. 55. These two references are the only mention of the Harran Stele, I can't find a hint of the discussion you recollect. The English translation of the text of the Harran Stele is available online: Ancient Near East—Harran

    As to the Hillah Stele, I am unaware of any Web-based resources on it. Feel free to look, if you like. It may require actual scholarship on your part, however. You know, opening a book, for instance? Better still, why not ask the Society (since they have never commented on it, one way or the other) for their perspective on the significance of the Hillah Stele to ANE chronology?

    I'm sure they will be happy to give you a thoroughly satisfactory answer.

    thirdwitness: I know the WTS has address the Nab's mother chronicle and its inconsistencies.

    Isn't the gulf between what we know and what we think we remember a truly vast chasm? I await your retraction but I will do so without bated breath, for obvious reasons.

    AuldSoul

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    Thirdwitness where are you? I am looking forward to your rebuttal. Since I know nothing about Hallah Stele, I am looking forward to anything you have to say.

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    BTTT

    I have much to learn. I can't wait to see this one explained away.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Well, I suppose no one will take me up on it. Not surprising, really. The proof is indisputable by JWs without any WTS-think to which they can appeal.

    Current JW: "Wow, I never knew about the Hillah Stele. But this guy says the Watchtower Society knows all about this. Why wouldn't they ever mention it? But he's right, I checked on my Watchtower Library CD-ROM and there is no mention of the Hillah Stele or of Nabon. No. 8. I wonder what else these 'apostates' are well versed in that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has intentionally kept from me?"

    Watchtower Society Representative: "See, Current JW? We told you they would poison your mind if you listened to them or read what they wrote! We warned you! How dare they bring up proof texts we have never told you about, if you don't know what we say about it how could you be expected to parrot what we say? It isn't fair the way they try to trick you into independent thought. Now that you have studied the Knowledge book or the Bible Teach book you know you don't have to think for yourself anymore, just ignore the apostate's post."

    Current JW: "What? Are you saying you expect me to stop thinking for myself? How then can I offer my sacrifice with my logical mind as Romans 12:1, 2 instructs?"

    Watchtower Society Representative: "A 2001 Watchtower article said, 'A mature Christian...does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding.' Are you a mature Christian, or an immature Christian?"

    Current JW: "Well, I definitely have some private ideas about Bible understanding, so I guess I am immature."

    Watchtower Society Representative: "That same article shows how you can become mature and maintain maturity. It went on to say, 'By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.' So if you do those things you'll be a mature Christian in no time at all!"

    Current JW: "Wait a second...where does the Bible figure into that list?"

    Watchtower Society Representative: "You are coming dangerously close to apostasy by rejecting what we say."

    Current JW: "I'm not rejecting it, I'm asking a question about what you say."

    Watchtower Society Representative: "Don't you believe this is God's only true organization on earth?"

    Current JW: "To tell the truth, given your responses to my sincere questions I am beginning to wonder!"

    Watchtower Society Representative: "So you don't believe this is God's only true organization on earth?"

    Current JW: "If you are going to force me to answer right now without answering my questions first, then no. I don't. At least not at the moment."

    Watchtower Society Representative: "Well then, you just disassociated yourself. Have a nice life, apostate."

    This conversation brought to you by the same people who said vaccinations and organ transplants constituted cannibalism.

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