by saki2fifty 148 Replies latest jw friends
Dear Quandry,
Thank you for your heartfelt experience. I am so very sorry your daughter had to go through such pain. A simular thing happened to my best friends daughter. She was treated horribly as well. I am so glad they all have moved far beyond all of the pain. We are all in this together.. I am so very greatful for this site. Here we can lean on each other, when there is no one else around us to lean on.
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
Lady Liberty, thank you. I don't want to intrude on another's post, but your first post contains many elements that I think would interest Saki2Fifty.Saki, perhaps you could go back to it and read it. It is most informative.
Lady, your feelings were the same as mine and I'm sure many others at finding out some of the information that had been kept hidden from us for so long.
Dear Saki,
Quandry suggested I share my first post to this forum, as it may be helpful to you. I hope it is.
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
Hello everyone, It's high time I introduce myself. I feel like I know many of you already, just by daily reading your posts over the last year. You all have been a support to my husband and I, even though you were not even aware we were even here. (I tried to keep my introduction brief, as I know long post are harder to read.) I was raised a JW as was my husband. We had ALWAYS been VERY regular and VERY active in the organization. My husband had been a ministerial servant for many years. About 3 years ago my parents left the Watchtower. We were devastated to put it mildly. My father had been a elder when I was young, and my mother had pioneered many times over the years as I grew up. They also were VERY strong and active in the organization. Because of the blood issue, which directly effected my family, and the child molestation issue, they began to have very serious questions. And as you all know, one question can lead to hundreds of others. Gradually they began to miss meetings. I now know they were trying to fade out. It was hard because I felt them slipping away, but they always made excuses. I loved them non-the less. However, our paths began to get wider apart. One day, before the summer assembly, my parents informed me that they had serious doubts. They tried to explain to me why they had not been at the meetings in so long and also why they would for the very first time in all my life not be attending to assembly. I felt like I had been run over by a bus! As they talked to me, I zoned out with disbelief, their voices became only a hum and blur in my mind. They had been the pillars to our whole family, and those pillars had just crumbled. From then on, my world as I have always known it was never the same. From time to time I would talk with my parents, begging them to reconsider, trying to reason with them from the literature. But since they had trained me so well with the whole "apostate" thing, I followed what they had trained me to do. I rejected any "Apostate" talk. I told them I never wanted to talk about it again, to never bring it up unless I had questions for them. It was just far too painful; to try so hard to bring them back around and get them to accept "Watchtower reasoning!" They promised they would never ever bring any of this up to our daughter. She being only 10, but VERY knowledgeable in the Watchtower ways. I was very afraid they could convince her this was not the "truth" and with teen years quickly approaching, I felt we might lose our daughter to "the world." But the one thing, out of everything we discussed before I cut off spiritual conversation with them, was the whole 607 issue. I remember my mother other telling me about all the different lines of evidences that do not support 607. She told me to check out the British Museum online. So I did. Sure enough the date given there was different than the 607 that I was always taught, and had taught others. But a quick look at the Appendix’s explanation put my mind at ease. I pushed the subject out of my mind, but it came back another day. Most of you are familiar with the movie National Treasure. Well, I loved it. After we saw it the first time I was telling my manicurist how great it was and a little about it. She informed me that there really are Freemasons. I was suprised. It made sense then, as to what all those Masonic Temples were I had seen in various places over the years. Like I do with any movie I love, I generally see it twice. While watching the movie, two things stuck me. First, the cross and the crown symbol that was once on our literature was in the movie. And second, the whole pyramid with the all seeing eye that is on the dollar bill, that too was on something years ago, wasn't it? I wondered. With those two questions, "Panders Box" was opened for my husband and me! That night I called my mother. I said, I have a question for you. Was there ever a pyramid on any of the literature? She said, "Yes, in the Divine Plan of the Ages." Realizing that these were symbols of the Freemasons, I asked if Russell was a Freemason. She said, "There is much speculation about it. But if he wasn't, he sure used ALOT of their symbols." I said,"ok. Thank you." And that was the end of that conversation. So.. Using the "devils tool", the Internet, I began searching for Russell and Freemasons. I know all of you know what I found. But for those who have not yet researched this, I found MANY disturbing things. Photos of Russell’s gravesite, the Masonic temple in view, as well as the Pyramid itself that Russell had the Bible students erect. What was all of this fascination of the Pyramid anyway? Well, I soon discovered, its called Pyramidology, and is HEAVILY steeped in demonism/spiritism. I still get goose bumps when I think of what I read that night! What was Russell doing involved with Freemason symbols, as well as Pyramidology??? Through our wonderful Google search engine, "the devils tool", I discovered that Russell based 1914 off the measurements of the inside of the Great Pyramid of Gehza. WHAT???!!!?? I asked myself! You have got to be kidding me?? I thought 1914 was based on 607. It had to be a coincidence! There is no way we teach 607 because of Pyramid roots! // Do we? So, getting out both sets of Encyclopedias we had, I found only 586/587 not 607! I looked in the Insight book, the Daniel book.... They all read 607! Then it all came back to me. I remembered my conversation with my mother many months prior, and I had gone to the British Museum. So I visited online once again. 586/587! The ONLY place I found 607 was in the society literature! Once again, the feeling of shock came over me. By now it was 2 or 3 in the morning. I just could not believe it! Could what my parents were trying to tell us all along be true? So. Around 4:00am I tried to slip into bed without my husband knowing I had never made it to bed to begin with. But. He knew I had been up all night. He said, "What have you been doing?" I said," Oh. just some research". When we finally got up I decided to share with him what I had discovered. He said, "Did you go to the Watchtower Library CD? I said, "No, I forgot about that." So he quickly pulled out the only reference to the discrepancy the society gives ...up, the Appendix to the Kingdom Come book. After reading it to me, and doing the simple math of 539 minus 70 years, equals 607, I thought, ok. I was relieved. For I knew that if 607 weren’t factual, my world as I knew it would come crashing down! As the months went by, it haunted me that the only place I found support for 607 was in the literature, and no where else was there any other support for 607. So without my husband’s knowledge, I continued to try to find support for 607. But the more I searched, the evidence continued to mount for the 586/587 date. I started talking to my husband about it again, but slowly. As he was convinced my parents were borderline "Apostate". And truthfully, so did I. We were afraid to question the organization. My husband it seemed was irritated that I wouldn't let it go and forget the whole date thing. But I could not sweep it under the carpet. I knew what it meant if it wasn't true. The whole foundation of this organization, including the authority it demands, crumbles! So. One Saturday he once again agreed to help me. And once again he went for the old "Appendix" routine. He said kind of sarcastically, " I don't see hats so difficult to understand". He wanted to simply go back the 70 years from 539 like the Appendix says to do. So I said, "No, prove it to me WITHOUT using any of the Societies literature." He said, "Ok." After about 5 hours, and after much study of the scriptures themselves, comparing it with the Kings lists, 586/587 was the match, NOT 607! He could not believe it! He finally realized the mental problem of "Cognicent Dissidence". After that realization, every meeting became more and more difficult. We found it harder and harder to sit through the meetings. Never had we realized how much that 607 date is drilled into the Jaws heads. But when you discover you are being lied to, it’s very hard to fake it. I would get extremely mad, and my face and chest would get all flushed because of being so upset as to what was being taught. We never meant to quit "cold turkey". But we did. And so here we are, we haven't been to a meeting in a year. It is amazing how easily we were thrown by the wayside. It really hurt, because we were so active and visible. But the only elder to call us, to see if we were ok, was an elderly brother who wasn't even a "acting elder." Where were our loving Shepherds? Certainly too busy to even pick up the phone to see if we were even alive. I know most of you who are out know those feelings all too well. Now we are on the JW "death row." It is another long story, but we are awaiting the reply from our elders regarding the discrepancy of 607. So far it has been over 5 weeks and still nothing! We kept it quiet for almost a year, but it got out, and now suddenly, we are persons of interest. However, Jehovah helped us, and I would like to share our meeting with all of you, possibly in another post. It may possibly help any that are faced with the elders. Just a couple of others things before I close. Friends, if you are trying to help get your loved ones out, the whole 607 issue should not be taken lightly! This is the reason MANY begin to question the organization! There have been so...many of you who posted information, as well as scanned old literature that I would have never found without your help! Just knowing we are not alone, and that so many of you have gone through this whole process already, has truly helped. You never know who is reading your posts, who through your encouraging words may one day break their silence and revile they have been there all along, also being helped. So to all of you. THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart! I look forward to posting here, and maybe helping someone else as well! Sincerely, You’re new friend, Lady Liberty | |
Wow, saki2fifty, you've said a mouthful. I would love to respond to you in detail, but where do I start? I see several overriding themes in your comments. First are your repeated affirmations of your love for the truth, Jehovah, and the organization. You don't distinguish much between the three. I'd like to have a conversation where we define these better, and how they are different from one another.
The second theme I see through your posts is your assumption on how we will respond and what our general experience has been. Be careful with that, we come from wildly varied backgrounds. For instance, Double Edge was never a Witness. Neither am I. I am a regular Christian, garden variety, married to a Jehovah's Witness. I investigated the Jehovah's Witness faith and I found them lacking in many areas. But my faith in God is intact. My love of truth continues. In your experience, should people like me exist in the world you envision? From my perspective, your view of the "world" is severely limited by your experience.
And finally, I find it disturbing that you think that this board has some power to convert you over to our way of thinking. Just because you post and read here is no guarantee that your faith will be removed from you. You have your own mind, use it. Accept and reject what you will.
Answers to your specific questions, from my own unique perspective:
Have you all had better lives now that you have left?
Never joined, doesn't count. Including the JW's as my "in-laws" so to speak, has complicated my life immeasurably.
I just dont understand why so many ex-jw's visit sites like these and congregate when the organization is so despised by you all.
The JW experience is demanding and unique, wouldn't you say? It takes a while to understand and process their pervasive influence in our lives. On top of that, the shunning policy leaves exiting JW's with a pitifully poor network. Sites like this are a necessary outlet for expression and healing.
Were you all not brothers and sisters at one time or what the society calls them?
Brothers and sisters in Christ? I would be happy to call them so, but I find the JW's to be alternately hot and cold with their affections, depending on how they view my own "spirituality" (i.e. meeting attendance) that week.
At one time im sure each of you enjoyed socializing and even enjoyed making the meetings and possibly enjoyed the fact that you were pleasing Jehovah.
I find it interesting that you connect the social events with Jehovah. I gave my heart to God a long time ago, and I have never stopped serving Him. My service, however, I see as being fulfilled in every activity of my day, including a kind word here and there, slowly and gently improving my world and the people in my sphere of influence.
I'm afraid of losing Jehovah, such as everyone on this board did.
Be careful with those assumptions. I have not lost God. If Jehovah the Grand Creator is everywhere, you can't really escape Him, can you? It's more a matter of being responsive to His voice.
Those who just go to church (again, one who has not known "the truth") just to go, which is practially the majority, dont have that feeling of purpose.
I think you just insulted garden variety Christians like me. Have you ever attended any other church service other than the meetings? Or are you depending on what you have heard at the public talks? I find those talks to make very broad and negativecomments about Christendom's churches. I'd like you to go investigate some of those claims with some cold, hard evidence.
but after leaving, have you found the truth about God and his requirements itself?
Never left, like I said, and the search for truth continues. I find my Christian obligations have expanded tenfold once I started seeking. It's not just a matter of a simple list of do's and don'ts, the honorable Christian walk demands that I do no harm. I measure my words far more carefully today, than even four years ago.
how are you living up to Gods standards and requirements?
Regular and frequent self-reflection.
And is it that, where you have found happiness?
Inside!
Or happiness not having to deal with JW's?
They are a diverting sideline.
You can never leave Jehovah but you can leave a religion.
Jesus didn't endorse any particular religion, did he?
He showed us the way to have a relationship with Jehovah. Jesus is our mediator, NOT a religion.
Just because I am not at a KH doesn't mean I have left Jehovah or that I don't have a relationship with him.
Just something to think about...
Saki, welcome and thank you for your question. I am sorry to hear about all the hardship you have been through.
I loved being a JW. I loved what I learnt and devoured the information as a teenager. As a teenager I loved doing the microphones, the sound, giving talks and accounts. I still love many of my friends and family, even though they are not allowed to talk to me, some treating me with such avoidance I feel like I have a contagious disease.
However, what I love more is truth, and over time I decided that I could not trust everything in the Watchtower and decided to do external (non apostate) research. It was devastating to find that I had been systematically lied to my entire life and had crucial information withheld from me. I came to realise that I will grow old and die, and had lived my life on a short term focus based around the lie that 1914 is foretold in the bible. I had been firmly told by the Watchtower and my family that Armageddon was going to come in the 20th century. I was horrified to realise I had turned my back on and shunned my best friends when they needed me most, simply because the Organization had decided that I could not talk to them.
Most JWs continue to love God after the leaving the organization. From what I can tell, most are happier after they have adjusted to life outside the Organization as they can truly develop their own personalities, rather than be dictated to by the standards of old American men. For instance yourself, you suffer guilt at not doing enough for the Watchtower Society. You have an introverted personality but belong to an organization that demands extroverted behaviour. I can assure you that you would be a happier person if you had been raised in a friendly Christian organization that accepted you for what you are, rather than made you feel guilty because you can never be the person they want you to be.
Saki...Welcome, and I hope you find whatever it is you are searching for. I am a 4th generation witness...so far I have managed to just quietly fade without being DA'd or DF'd. The UN situation got one of my brothers DF'd and my other immediate family members (except one brother) have all faded.
I started doing a lot of research on my own and spent many hours reading and studying the Bible without the WTS slant on things. That's a very eye opening experience to say in the least. One thing that really got my attention in the beginning was that I decided to research the "Evolution" book quotes by Carl Sagan. I lived in a college town and very often talked with professors in the ministry. Several told me that his quotes had been taken out of context. I fully trusted the WTS and so I didn't bother to look this up until the UN fiasco...what a shock!!!
After hours of looking up erroneous quotes...I went home and threw the book in the trash can...it was after all, garbage. How can an organization claiming to be the "truth" print lies for us to peddle door-to-door, and we unsuspecting and trusting them totally without even researching the information hand it out to the community?
The ancient Boreans had enough sense to look up Paul's information before they believed him.....it's incredible how gullible most JW's are.
Swalker
Lady Liberty, i'm not sure what to think. Yes, the points that you have brought out... I have heard. That is why I'm afraid of losing what I have because I know there is some truth to it. It's amazing to see how many others share similiar experiences with your's being almost identical. 607BCE.. man. I used to use that as the foundation to prove that we are in the last days... so sure that this was the proof that we are the one and only true religeon. I too have found out what you have, and the disbelief that I had, and still do, is hard to get over. I've read some of the other posts and it appears as though this board does not tailor to just JW's, which I was unaware of, so my apologies if I offended you with some of my comments. I guess for those who are not witnesses, or once were, having just studied who we are and what we are about, then you can never know how painful it is to have your whole world crumble in an evening. You will never know how much of your life is based on our teachings. I'm stuborn though, and I will continue to justify my relationship with the organization even if it means living a lie. Because where do you go once leaving? Lady Liberty, whats next for you? Do you go out and find another so called true religeon? Do you just look within yourself and try to interpret the complex bible and apply it to your life as best as you can? I say or ask that because thats what my Dad tells me... look within, have joy and peace within yourself for thats what he has found. But what does that mean? What about doing what God demands? In the year that you have left have you found that happiness that everyone else here displays? Once a witness, I dont see how you can...
Sorry, wish I had time to respond to everyones comments, which in time I'm sure I will.. and plan on it, but I'm currently writing up from work. Afraid to research at home, for I dont want to mislead my family.
Thank you all...
how painful it is to have your whole world crumble in an evening. You will never know how much of your life is based on our teachings.
You'd be surprised how much I understand.
I'm stuborn though, and I will continue to justify my relationship with the organization even if it means living a lie.
I think the key to your puzzle is in separating the truth, Jehovah, and the organization. I believe that you are firmly devoted to Jehovah and that you sincerely want to follow Him. Hold on to that, your faith is who you are. The organization has lied to you. Jehovah has not. Leave the lie, cling to the truth. Is not that what your own teachings would demand?
Because where do you go once leaving?
It's been said many times before on this board, I'll repeat it. It's not WHERE you go but WHO. Jehovah is certainly not restricted to Kingdom Halls, is He? I prescribe a two-week holiday for you and your family to some place beautiful on earth. If you're not a camper, stay in a motel. Spend your mornings and evenings out-of-doors, gazing at stars or lake, and ponder the deep things of God. You may use your bible if you wish. I suggest you restrict yourself while on holidays to the Psalms.
Lady Liberty, whats next for you? Do you go out and find another so called true religeon?
Who, not where. Start to disentangle man-made organizations with the living God. I am convinced this is where your salvation lies.
Do you just look within yourself and try to interpret the complex bible and apply it to your life as best as you can?
You know, the bible is not nearly so hard to understand when you start reading it plain, without anyone telling you how to interpret it.
What about doing what God demands?
I know you are used to the Christian walk being demanding, but it's not a very Christian concept. Jesus told us his burden would be light. I did an interesting study once on yokes, their shape and design. A yoke built for an ox does not suit an ass. Their shoulders are situated differently, and they have a different manner of pulling. There are different yokes also for plowing or pulling. The angle of the yoke is also very important. Putting the wrong yoke on an animal is a cruelty, as you force him to work harder for nothing. If you are groaning under the weight, perhaps the yoke being put-on you was not made for you?
Once a witness, I dont see how you can...
You can't see it because you haven't tried it. I understand. You are standing on the edge of the pool, putting the toe in the water. We all APPARENTLY are having fun, but you just can't commit yourself to take the leap. What if the shock stops your heart? Sure, take it slow, start with the toe. Myself, I like to splash the cold water across my head and back first before plunging in.
Greetingd saki2fifty,
A big welcome to JWD, from a former 25 years dyed-in the wooler, totally dedicated JW. We too, (family of 5) had those same feelings of contentment and security, as well as feeling we could not have been doing anything better in our lives pleasing God. Went to all the meetings, assemblies, quickbuilds.
But...
Dismembered
