A bit reluctant

by saki2fifty 148 Replies latest jw friends

  • hummingbird92575
    hummingbird92575

    Hi Again Saki...Okay, so I couldn't stop reading LOL

    Here is some SCRIPTURE, that none of these arguers have bothered to offer that can discredit the Organization...

    I am sure you all know this one:

    Pr 3:5-7

    5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.

    DO NOT LEAN UPON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. This is an ORDER. Satan did the same thing to Eve in the garden of Eden that you guys are doing to him right now. Little mindless jabs...whispers..."Why not do some research?" & "What's wrong with the world?" and such.

    6 In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.

    Saki, pick up your bible and pray. Jehovah will put you back on the right path if you have UNQUESTIONING faith in HIM! These people ARE NOT HIM. Who are they to tell you to turn away from the True God?

    7 Do not become wise in your own eyes. Fear Jehovah and turn away from bad.

    TURN AWAY FROM BAD...I would go no farther. I hope well for you, Saki. Don't give up on accurate knowledge. This place seems to be a breeding ground for those who have turned away from the TRUE RELIGION.

    Please reconsider your thoughts about Jehovah (to everyone else).

    There is no place in the earthly paradise for apostacy.

    I pray that you will all someday rethink your conversions. I hope well for you all.

  • caligirl
    caligirl

    Ok, so I can't let this thread end with that last post from hummingbird. Kind of reminds me of a little kid that puts their hands over their ears and screams "LA LA LA LA I CAN"T HEAR YOU" at the top of their lungs to drown out what they do not want to hear. Fear can be a powerful thing, and it is a natural gut instinct to hide from things that challenge you to closely examine what you think is true. It is far easier to close the door and refuse to look.

    But I digress.

    First, welcome to the board saki2. It is not a bad place to hang and gain some perspective you might not otherwise have encountered.

    For the record, I am not DF'd or DA'd. I quietly faded into the woodwork in my early 20's for personal reasons and very few people noticed my absence. I had a wonderful childhood with loving parents and a great family life, similar to what you describe. The congregation was another story. Wasn't really "feelin the love" from that location, but because it was primarily my only social life, I looked forward to going to see the few people I counted as friends. I had numerous experiences that made me question what was being taught from the platform, but I squashed them for years until the anxiety of living a life that caused me great internal crisis won out. My conscience would no longer allow me to stay.

    Things I heard just didn't add up for me. I would hear the scripture read about how Christ's yoke is kindly and his load is light, and reflect on the craziness of our lives with all the meeting requirements and service and personal study and think to myself, " If THIS is what a light load feels like, I have no desire to feel what the heavy load is!" Mind you that I was about 12 when this thought started to occur to me.

    When I made the decision to stop going, I thought that I had no faith left. I felt that all my experiences (too numerous to address here) had killed any faith I might have had. I didn't even know if I still believed in God. But slowly over the years, I have come to realize what true faith and joy is. I understand what Jesus was saying when he fortold that his true followers would be dragged before religious leaders for not following tradition and dictates, for daring to go against the establishment, the power structure. I understand what it means to not allow men to be masters over my faith. I know a personal relationship with God does not come from where you are on Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday.

    You see, the faith that I have now is built on the rock mass that the scriptures discuss. It cannot be shifted or destroyed by what I read, who I talk to or what I see. It is truly in my heart now. I can acknowledge other's right to their position and even put myself in their place without feeling the least bit frightened of my faith being shaken. I can even acknowledge how some people might not believe in god at all. The faith that I was taught as a witness was built on sand - easily derailed because there was no foundation to build on. I came to realize why it was constantly pounded into my head that I should not read anything that challenged what was being taught through the literature and at meetings. It was because what I had been taught to be absolute truth would crumble like a stale cookie under the slightest challenge. I know what a personal relationship with God is. I just never had it until I left. And I never realized the all consuming fear that I had been taught to have of anyone with a divergent opinion, until I could look at the organization through the eyes of an outsider and realize that I had been actively taught to fear anything from an outside source. I did not get onto the internet until several years after my last meeting. Websites or books had nothing to do with my decision to leave. I never discussed it with anyone. It was purely an internal decision based on instinct. It certainly felt great when I did stumble accross the sites on the internet to know that there were literally thousands of others who had questioned the same things I did.

    So I wish you well on your journey. You have opened the door, where you go from here is truly up to you. You have the freedom of choice to run back into the house and slam the door, or walk out and explore all there is to see before you decide what you want to do with your life. A great place to start might be talking with you father and siblings and truly listening to what they have to say, even if you might be afraid to hear it.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    It might be useful, Saki, to learn how to evaluate the quality of an argument.

    • Quoting a scripture is fine...does it relate to the subject at hand? Look it up and check. I'd say in the WT literature, one in five doesn't. If there is little scriptural backing, often the WTBTS will simply quote Matthew 24:45.
    • Circular reasoning has been mentioned. For example, "I tell no lies." "I just lied." Based on what I just told you, am I honest or not?
    • This is why honest scholars will look for exterior evidences and confirmation of an assertion. The greater the weight of exterior, verifiable evidence, the more likely the assertion is true. In the absence of any exterior evidence, the original assertion must remain suspect.
    • Good scholars are careful to distinguish fact from wishful thinking. If something cannot be proven, they will preface their comments with "I think". Fact: It is dark outside. Right now. Where I live. Excluding the street lights.
    • Does the debater try and manipulate the listener by way of deceptive reasoning (logical fallacies)? A favorite tactic of JW apologists is an Ad Hominem attack. They will say something like, "Whatever you say cannot be trusted because you are an opposer to the Truth." If an "opposer of the Truth" told you it was dark outside their home at 5:00 in the morning, can you trust what they have to say? How could you verify that what they are saying is true?

    Using these principles in the whole 607 debate for instance, how might you determine who is telling the truth? Myself, I had my husband look up "Babylon" in his Encyclopedia Brittanica. You can be fairly certain that the encylopedia writers took care with their source information. To research further, look up the original source articles quoted and referenced in the encyclopedia.

  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    Dear Hummingbird,

    I understand your fealings, as I once thought my very own parents turned apostate. Now after a thorough examination I realise that they did not create this mess they just discovered it. I find it so amazing how everyone just wants to stick their head in the sand. What is there to be afraid of. Afterall, like I told Saki, if the truth really is the truth, you should be able to examine it. If you are truely seeking truth, then you will after all your examining, conclude that this is the truth, and will be even more faith strenghtened because of it. Jehovah does not want blind faith. Faith has to be based on truth. The Bereans were commended for they kept checking and making sure. Pease read the Watchtower 1952 October 1st, page 10. Here is a section you may find interesting:

    When the God-fearing people at Berea were taught certain things even by the apostle Paul, they went "daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so". (Acts 17:11, Dy) We can be just as noble as those Bereans were by doing the same thing.

    Why would we be condemned for doing the same thing? I encourage you to read the article in the Awake 1970, April 8th page 2. It is entitled, "Your Word Is Truth- Is yours the right religon?" Obviously this article was written for "wordly" ones, but it has some very good points, and why would this not apply to everyone? Here is just a little bit from that article:

    Are you sure that your religion truly has God’s approval? It is possible to make sure. Yes, you can determine for certain whether your religion is the right one. This can be done by examining whether its teachings and practices are in accord with God’s Word, which Jesus said is the truth. (John 17:17) It is a relatively easy examination to make. And if you should find in making it that your religion’s teachings and practices are not in keeping with the Bible, then it is not the right religion.

    Are you willing to put your religion through such a test? There is nothing to fear, because if you have the right religion you can only be reassured by the examination. And if what you believe is not in keeping with the Bible, then you should welcome the truth, because it leads to eternal life.—John 17:3.

    Apostacy in the bible is not the same as what the organization defines it as. Apostacy is to deny Jehovah God and Christ Jesus. I personally will never deny them However, for a group to place themselves Jehovahs wife like organization, right beside Jehovah, don't you think it only fitting that we must examine their credentials? Would not Jehovah expect this of us?

    I grew up in the orgainzation yet like Timothy I finally examined my faith. The Awake 1988 August 8th page 7 says:

    ‘Only the foolhardy would do that,’ you may think. Such matters should not be taken lightly. And yet, for many of us one of life’s most crucial decisions—which religion we should profess—has been decided for us by chance, by long-forgotten quirks of history, and by place of birth.

    Would it not be wise to ask yourself: ‘To what do I owe my religion? Was it a hand-me-down that I have never questioned? Or did I make a deliberate, rational choice?’ Asking such questions is the very thing that the Bible urges us to do. The apostle Paul admonished the Corinthians to ‘keep testing whether they were in the faith, to keep proving what they themselves were.’—2 Corinthians 13:5.

    On the other hand, some were moved to reconsider their religious upbringing. The Bible mentions a young man named Timothy whose mother and grandmother brought him up as a Jew in harmony with the Scriptures. At some point they adjusted their thinking to become Christians. Years later Paul reminded him of what he had ‘learned and been persuaded to believe.’ (2 Timothy 3:14) Thus Timothy was encouraged to remain in the Christian faith that he had accepted, after he himself had made a thorough examination.

    Sergius Paulus was a Roman provincial governor in Cyprus who doubtless paid homage to some of the Roman gods. After listening to the preaching of Paul, however, "he became a believer, deeply impressed by what he learned about the Lord."—Acts 13:12, NE.

    In both cases a deliberate choice was made after a thorough examination based on God’s Word. Why not imitate the course of Sergius Paulus and Timothy? One changed his religion, the other did not; but both were rewarded by personally finding the truth. Nevertheless, because of tradition, fear, or prejudice, some may feel reticent about taking such a step.

    ........Whatever your religion may be, do not leave it to chance. Prove to yourself, using God’s Word, what is the truth, the unique and precious truth that Jesus taught.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses will be happy to offer their assistance. They sincerely invite you to heed Joshua’s words: ‘Choose for yourself whom you will serve.’—Joshua 24:15.

    I hope you do not continue to discorage Saki, or anyone else for that matter, from doing exactly what the Society themselves have recommended, "Examine your faith!"

    Sincerely,

    Lady Liberty

  • Lady Liberty
    Lady Liberty

    P.S. I found a few more things to think about Hummingbird: Watchtower 1954 October 1st, pg.1 Entitled, " Lies Lead To Loss Of Life":

    9

    Because truth originates with God and lies originate with Satan, it follows that all doctrine and teachings of men that are contrary to the Word of God are false teachings. If such doctrines or teachings tend to do injury to others, then such doctrines or teachings are lies. The Word of God is true and that is our measuring rod. What is contrary to the Word of God is a lie and it proceeds from the Devil. It is for our own welfare that we abandon everything having to do with lies and stick close to the truth. Christians should not believe things merely because they are said or printed, but must judge what are true by their conformity to the Scriptures. The Bereans did that, as we read at Acts 17:11 (NW): "Now the latter were more nobleminded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest readiness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so." The advice in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22 (NW) is that we should not treat prophesyings with contempt, but make sure of all things and hold fast to what is right. Then we shall keep ourselves free from every form of wickedness, including lying.

    Also: Watchtower 1955 April 15th, pg.1, Entitled, "The True Christian Congregation":

    Yes, since Jesus accepted the Bible as God’s Word, it must follow that the Christian congregation accepts the inspiration of the Bible. Paul reasoned from the Scriptures, the Bereans were commended for checking by their Bibles everything they heard Paul say; and he wrote Timothy: "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, . . . that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." And Peter stated that "men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." It follows, therefore, that no religious body that fails to accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God could be the Christian congregation.—2 Tim. 3:15-17; 2 Pet. 1:19-21; Acts 17:2, 11, NW.

    And: Watchtower 1961 June 15th, pg. 1 Entitled: "Faith in Faith- Is That Your Religon?":

    Yes, we have not only God’s book of nature to tell us about God but his written Word, the Bible, so that we may have a solid basis for our faith, as did the Bereans of old, who carefully examined the Scriptures daily to see whether the things brought to them in the name of Christianity were indeed supported by God’s Word or not. That is why the apostle Paul wrote Timothy: "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." Obviously, in this Scriptural testimony there is no room for a religion of mere feeling or for a faith based on the mental attitude of faith.—Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Hummingbird,

    In case you are still lurking, perhaps you can give me the Scriptures to support JW Requirements for "Christian" Baptism

    Aside from repentance and conversion I can't find a single Scripture to support any of the requirements they say a believer must meet in order to qualify for baptism. If I am not to rely on my own understanding, should I rely on the understanding of other imperfect, uninspired men? If so, why? If not, I need the Scriptures that support their teaching on pre-baptismal requirements so that I may rely on the teachings of the Bible instead of the traditional interpretation of men.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • saki2fifty
    saki2fifty

    Sorry guys, but I am unable to respond for the day. You all are great, and I'm fortunate for your responses. I went outside late last night when everyone was in bed, looked up to the stars, pondered and prayed sincerely to Jehovah for help as suggested. I think it may have been answered... Hummingbird... I've sent you a personal mail (you can see your inbox in top left hand corner).

  • MinisterAmos
    MinisterAmos
    the good outweighs the bad. For the most part, and I would say upwards of 90% of what is taught and excercised is good....

    A reasonable person might be led to believe that folks who claim to be directly influenced by the holy spirit would do a lot better than 90%. If this "spiritual buffet" were a TX restaurant and the health Department only rated it 90%, well then it would be closed for cleaning. Unfortunately, there is a whole lot more riding here than possible indigestion. Have you already decided that your three children should die rather receive a blood transfusion if they need it? The WatchTower has made that decision for you.

    Remember though that these are the same guys who are "only 90%" in your own words and have such a huge history of errors and false prophecy that I am unable to find one single solitary original "doctrinal truth" that has stood the test of time.

    Ask your local Elder for one example if you dare.

    How do we know that Dubs have the truth?

    Because it is Jehovah's organization.

    How do we know it is Jehovah's organization?

    Because it is the truth

    Rinse and repeat as required. That'll really convince those 'Postates!

  • TD
    TD

    In line with what others have said, the act of citing scripture in JW publications is not necessarily proof of whatever point is being made. There can be (And often are) a mountain of hidden assumptions behind any given scriptural citation

    Take the "Faithful & Discreet Slave" doctrine for example: (Another JW teaching difficult for non-JW's to grasp)

    42 And the Lord said: "Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so! (Luke 12:42,43 NWT)

    Jesus never said the slave would be faithful. He said the slave would be rewarded if he was faithful.

    He also said that IF that slave decided his Master was delaying and was unfaithful, he would be punished:

    45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and should start to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting [him] and in an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. (Luke 12:45,46 NWT)

    The language here is clearly conditional, ean de eiph o douloV... (But if that slave should say....)

    It seems to me that the JW's have taken a parable about one slave and turned it into a prophecy about two slaves; one faithful and one unfaithful. That is not what Jesus said.

    Also, the determination of faithfulness (Or unfaithfulness) was for Jesus and Jesus alone to make. In other words, it was not up to the slave to declare himself righteous, it was up to Jesus.Yet in the JW application, declaring themselves faithful is exactly what the "slave" does. "The composite slave class" "looks" back at their past actions and says "Our record proves we were faithful. Therefore the Master appointed us over all his belongings in 1918"

    That is a lot to assume --far more than can be proven by a (misapplied) scriptural citation

  • love2Bworldly
    love2Bworldly

    Saki2fifty--welcome to the board! I have not had a chance to read through this whole thing but wanted to let you know that I would not put another person down for what they believe. If being a JW makes you happy, then more power to you. I myself do believe that the JW organization is a lying, deceitful, unChristian organization--but that's my opinion and everyone has one. Wish you much luck in your spiritual journey and where it may lead you.

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