Gun owners - 3rd party defense of JW?

by asleif_dufansdottir 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • asleif_dufansdottir
    asleif_dufansdottir


    TD's right. Each state is different. Some of them allow you to use force in the defense of a third party, some don't (I guess).

    The article about the "sniper" (I hate to use that term for just a murderer who shoots at random people) was likely Phoenix, where I live. We have *2* serial killers. One is the 'sniper' (who shoots at dogs, horses and usually men and has killed 5 people) and the other is the Baseline rapist/killer (who attacks, robs, rapes and sometimes kills women and has killed 6 people). Between the 2 of them, they've attacked over 40 people since last year. Some of the murders were unpleasantly close to my house.

    If a woman wants be able to do something besides cower, submit and plead with the criminal not to hurt her, and chooses to carry a gun so that she can, I don't see why people need to make snide remarks.

    A criminal is way more likely to be able to use a gun,

    Wrong. Many criminals are as convinced of the 'magical' properties of guns as anti-gun people, and, like them, think that just having the gun and aiming it in the general direction means it will solve their problems. Some of us practice regularly because we believe it is irresponsible to carry and not practice. It's not amazing marksmanship to hit center-of-mass on a human at 7 yards, but if you don't practice you're likely to miss.

    WAY more motivated to use it (cos hes desperate, probably, for money or drugs or money for drugs)

    Wrong. If you think I am less motivated to prevent myself from being raped, robbed or murdered than a criminal is to do attack me, you are mistaken. Selfishness and laziness are not the same thing as desperate.

    and way less likely to feel a human inhibition about causing fatal damage to another human being

    Ask the women on my women and guns forum if they would cause fatal damage to an attacker in defense of their children.

    And, for the record, I object to being called "dumb" just because I choose to do something you don't like, don't understand, and fear.

    I didn't really intend for this thread to turn into an anti/pro gun debate. People were murdering, raping and robbing for tens of thousands of years before guns were invented. What guns have *really* changed is that smaller, weaker people (women, the physically infirm, the elderly) have a fighting chance against a larger, stronger aggressor. Try that with a sword or knife...especially if you hadn't devoted your life to the practice of martial arts. There are some JWs I would not hesitate to come to the defense of...however, I knew a significant percentage who were superior, holier-than-thou jerks, who would have rather been attacked than defended (it would make for better press about how Satan's world is out to get Jehovah's people). I can just see the Awake article now..."Brother so-and-so used to have a gun for self-defense, until his elders counseled him about it. He disposed of it in a theocratic manner (insert Bible verses about people burning valuable magic books) and his family were attacked and were very glad they could uphold Jehovah's name by being defenseless victims. Brother so-and-so is particularly glad that owning a gun did not cause him to potentially become bloodguilty by killing a murdering theif. Sister so-and-so is particularly grateful for the resurrection hope, because if she stays a JW she might see her murdered daughter in paradise"...that kind of drivel.

  • Justice-One
    Justice-One
    I read a story in the Miami Herald about a sniper in some town in America this week. Apparently the sale of hand guns has gone up since the snipers activities.

    This just shows how dumb gun owners can be.

    Since when did anybody SEE a sniper AND have enough time to shoot back??? DUH.

    Owning a gun for self defence is a false security IMO. A criminal is way more likely to be able to use a gun, WAY more motivated to use it (cos hes desperate, probably, for money or drugs or money for drugs) and way less likely to feel a human inhibition about causing fatal damage to another human being.

    Im glad there is no culture of owning guns where I live, because I can only think that more guns = more shootings = more injuries

    Yup, I'm a dumb American gun owner, and proud of it.

    U.S.A. A gun loving country that has been saving the worlds ass for more than two hundred years.

  • Justice-One
    Justice-One
    The article about the "sniper" (I hate to use that term for just a murderer who shoots at random people)

    Yeah, I bet 'ole "White Feather" is spinning in his grave.

  • Wordly Andre
    Wordly Andre


    The Second Amendment:

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed.

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    U.S.A. A gun loving country that has been saving the worlds ass for more than two hundred years.

    Yet another shiny turd dropping from J-1. I wonder Captain America, can you provide A SINGLE piece of evidence to support this dipshit jingoism? Last time I checked the history books, the US has not "SAVED" anyones ass in its entire history. Not that I dont appreciate a "Big Mac" once in a while, but I think the world would have survived just fine in the absence of McDonalds.

  • justsomedude
    justsomedude
    This just shows how dumb gun owners can be.

    Since when did anybody SEE a sniper AND have enough time to shoot back??? DUH.

    Owning a gun for self defence is a false security IMO. A criminal is way more likely to be able to use a gun, WAY more motivated to use it (cos hes desperate, probably, for money or drugs or money for drugs) and way less likely to feel a human inhibition about causing fatal damage to another human being.





    Rather than pick apart the whole thing as has already been done. I'd just like to address the "Owning a gun for self defence is a false security" comment. I'd really have to wonder how you arrived at this conclusion. Over here we're able to own more than replicas and so that might account for the difference.

    I've been shooting for over a decade, am extremely familiar with my carry weapons and have practiced extensively with them. I've spent a lot of time considering the ramifications to using a gun and although I cant say with total certainty how I would feel afterwards in the event that I did have to use one, I have at the very least prepared myself mentally to use one if I need to (IMO).

    It's just a cultural difference, just like any other. In some parts of the world, drug use is legal and in others its not. Here drug use is criminalized and users are certainly looked down on by the majority of society. Right or wrong, ignorant or not, thats the way it is. Would it be right to apply that stigma to people who use drug in places where their use is completely legal?

  • Justice-One
    Justice-One
    Last time I checked the history books, the US has not "SAVED" anyones ass in its entire history.

    Kid-A (What does that "A" stand for I wonder? Certainly not Academic.) - Hey Kid, ever heard of WW1 and WW2? Or maybe the Cold War? You know someone like you who is either mentally limited, or disingenous, really should do more listening than talking. But you are always good for a laugh. Now go back to your cartoons like a good little boy.

  • Bstndance
    Bstndance

    Obviously most anti-gun people live in urban areas and only hear about the criminals that use guns. What if you were a dairy farmer and every night lost a cow or two to coyotes? "Bad dog! Don't kill my investment" HAHA!! Guns are useful tools. People that think they are only bad are tools.

  • TD
    TD

    I very much respect everybody's opinion and recognize that like religion, there is so much emotionalism tied up with this issue that it's difficult to discuss. This in and of itself is what puzzles me. For example, IF

    • --You've never owned a gun in your life don't know that much about them.
    • --Have never worked in law enforcement or otherwise recieved formal training in firearms safety
    • --Have never received any formal training in marksmenship and/or shoot/don't shoot scenarios
    • --Have not done any serious research on the topic. (Hurried visits to anti-gun or pro-gun websites don't count)
    • --Don't live in a country with particular aggressive and/or dangerous wildlife
    • --Don't live in a country geographically large enough to find yourself more than 70 km from any public services (e.g. police, paramedic, fire)
    • --Have never been attacked by either wild animals or human criminals intent on doing you serious bodily harm

    --Then why not just accept that different situations will produce different choices on this issue? For that matter, why have a strong opinion at all? Surely intelligent people would realize how easy it would be advance popular misconception as fact (Like JW's and the ice age) on a subject with which your are unfamiliar?

  • asleif_dufansdottir
    asleif_dufansdottir


    I don't know whether the Miami paper or KatieKitten got it wrong, but the majority of women who are buying guns in Phoenix (and there are a *lot* of them, the ranges are full of women these days) are doing so because of the Baseline Rapist/Killer, not the Serial Shooter.

    RE: guns for self defense...since KatieKitten is in Miami at the moment...

    40 years ago there women of Orlando were terrorized by a bunch of brutal rapes. Hundreds of women were buying guns. The anti-gun newspaper in the city thought this was awful. They even suggested that the cops stop the women from buying guns. Fortunately that didn't happen. What did happen was that the paper and the police set up a training program which trained over 6000 women how to shoot in a few months. The paper, of course, highly publicized this. Even though it was never reported that a woman used her gun in self defense against a rapist, the number of rapes dropped. Apparently rapists thought that the women of Orlando no longer made easy targets.

    Suggested reading:

    The Untold Triumph of Concealed-Carry Permits

    http://www.policyreview.org/jul96/labs.html

    The Sexism of Gun Control (a personal favorite): link fixed

    http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2002/0813b.html

    Armed & Female by Paxton Quigley, a female and former anti-gun activist who campaigned for the Handgun Control Act of 1968.

    Although none of this has to do with whether a gun owner is at more risk coming to the defense of a JW than a non-JW...

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