Has anyone stopped to think what Jesus was REALLY saying to the jews? Jesus also says that you have neither seen nor heard him. So what you say? Well the OT speaks of how the Jews on several occassions not only saw gods ass (backside) but also heard him speak. This would indicate to me that jesus knew that the god of the jews or OT was not his father but someone alot more sinistar. Comments?
You are from your father the devil!
by sinis 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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dvw
unless jesus is the liar,
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peacefulpete
Well that may well have been the intended meaning. G. John shows much contact with Christian Gnosticism, a collection of movements that had the view that the god of the OT was in fact an inconsistant and violent upstart demiurge not the true Monad god.
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sinis
Now if that is what was meant, then WHICH law did jesus come to fulfill????? The noachian law, mosiac law, or some other law not written?
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plmkrzy
what Jesus was REALLY saying to the jews?
You people are soooo bone-headed!
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JamesThomas
It may be important to not take such words too fundamentally, materially, or carnally; as we may then judge a whole group of people as evil. If the Jesus of the Bible actually existed, and he had realized truth, then his words very likely would have been referring to peoples beliefs and not their actual physical existence being that of the devil. The devil being not a real entity, but rather those beliefs which separate us (in our minds) from the Divine.
Basically the problem with religious beliefs is the thoughtless wholesale reduction of God (our Source and Sustenance), down to a deity, a thing, an object, a particular personage. The act of such minimizing shrinks our Source (not really, but rather in the mind only) down to a fragment or piece within the universe; when actually what the word G-O-D points to, is what all universes and phenomena exist within. There is no place or time where IT is not. Does this make sense? Do you see the difference?
So, Jesus would have been speaking allegorically, in parables only. We are of the devil (of the lie) when we unquestionably believe that God is some thing outside and apart from us. It takes a huge mental process of subtraction to shrink God/Infinity, down to a specific location, as it removes God from all the rest of the universe except for some abstract little place. This is not honoring God. This is diminishing and belittling God. Yet most every Christian, Jew and Muslim does it every breathing moment of their day. These people are not evil, they are in fact no less divine than any and all life. They're just ignorant of truth and have fed upon lies. They suck the tit of Satan...allegorically speaking.
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Narkissos
The Fourth Gospel indeed reflects a strong anti-Judaism -- Jesus is regularly opposed to "the Jews" as he is to "the world," the Torah is "your/their law" etc.
Also note that "the devil" is no "fallen angel" here, he is an eternal, uncreated, evil principle which has nothing to do with Jesus' Father (v. 44, fairly literally): "You are from the father the devil, and you want to do your father's desires. He was a manslaughter from the beginning and never stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and his father."
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Twitch
an eternal, uncreated, evil principle which has nothing to do with Jesus' Father
(((Narkissos)))
Care to expand on this?
My first thought is that every action has a reaction. Thus is there an eternal, uncreated good principle? Chicken or egg?
Pls define
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Narkissos
Twitch,
I think the Fourth Gospel reflects a strongly dualistic perspective, which may be traced back to the Essenes (cf. the symmetrical opposition of light and darkness, spirit of truth and spirit of error in the Qumran Rule) and further back to Persian (Zoroastrian) dualism. Already in the priestly narrative of Genesis 1 darkness is uncreated. God says/makes light and separates it from (pre-existing) darkness. He has nothing to do with the latter. Similarly with the Johannine Prologue, "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." Cf. 1 John 1:5: "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him there is no darkness at all."
The orthodox depiction of the devil as a good angel turned bad (which by the way leaves the very principle of evil unexplained) is completely foreign to this perspective.