Moving on...

by Zico 35 Replies latest jw friends

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  saki2fifty

  so saki2fifty, where do you think you will go from here? Are you going to work towards baptism?

  I have no idea. This whole thing is just really complex and I question my capacity to even find out the answers. In order to find the truth, the real truth, you have to evaluate both sides, and even a 3rd if there is one. One side alone contains an enormous amount of research... and thats just half of the answers. The other side will not complement the first set of answers, so then thats where all of the complex research takes place.

  Baptism. I'm sure its down the road, just need to get these doubts out first.

  I choose to take the blue pill (The Matrix). I want to forget it all, know nothing, and go back to the simple lifestyle I had before.
• 

  saki2fifty

  I find it strange that WTBTS discourages honest enquiry and debate about its teachings and history, as I believe that one's beliefs could only be strengthened if one has been able to reinforce them with research and knowledge.

  Because one must not rely on his own understanding, for he cannot even direct his own step.
  

  When you congregate as a brotherhood, and you study deeply the points of the bible, there has to be a leader... there has to be a head. Someone to direct us in the right direction. This can be seen all over the earth, whether you look at our local KH's, or look at Catholic churches... you usually have someone, or some representing body to research and deliver the message to its people. And if that particular body, or head says "watch out guys ", "there are sharks in the waters, dont go in there" then its for our own good. Let that particular body research the material and deliver the information, whether its the information you are looking for or not, in its own due time. Now of course, discouraging one to research something is not saying they cant... but if they do, then they are on their own. An example to show how easy it is to deceive would be this. Give me 2 weeks only, and in those 2 weeks I can assure you that I can put false information on this site... and ensure everyone breaths it like truth itself. And once done, then you'd be welcome to research it to your hearts content.

  And forget about history. Well, not literally, but when it comes to the history of the WTBTS, why bring that up and build a case against it as though the WTBTS is "evil" beacause of it? Like I said in an earlier post, if you base our current efforts to please Jehovah God on the history of a man who had some apparent problems, then you might as well reject the teachings of early faithful servants of God, for their were very bad people as well, having bad history. Or... would it only apply to Organizations?
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  pepheuga

  : when it comes to the history of the WTBTS, why bring that up and build a case against it as though the WTBTS is "evil" beacause of it? they don't need to be evil to be unfollowable. all they need to be is 'not jehovah's chosen channel.' and how do we know that they are or aren't jehovah's chosen channel? by asking jehovah, of course! deuteronomy 18: 21 says; And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" [22] when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him. is this not the direct, untampered with, word of jehovah? and is it not simple enough?
• 

  jgnat

  Here's my best advice from the board for Zico:

  School (trade or college) is a great place to start meeting new people and learning how to accept them for who they are without having the JW glasses cloud your view. So that will start to take care of the no friends outside of JW issue.

  1) don't "make" your time. the best way to stop pioneering is to have them make you stop because you weren't making your time any more. remember, pioneering is a privilege, not a right. ;)

  2) slowly make friends outside the Kingdom hall, through work, hobbies, or school.

  And I would add:

  Disentangle your dependencies before you speak up. This includes finding another job away from your uncle, having a savings account, and moving out on your own.

  saki:

  I choose to take the blue pill (The Matrix). I want to forget it all, know nothing, and go back to the simple lifestyle I had before.

  LOL, you've already taken the red pill. You're funny, man! http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php
• 

  katiekitten

  I have no idea. This whole thing is just really complex and I question my capacity to even find out the answers.

  Saki, you are such a genuinely lovely thoughtful person. I really enjoy reading your posts.
• 

  grey matters

  Well Saki,
  You’ve got a real dilemma there. On the one hand, you have found a community that you enjoy being part of in the Jehovah’s Witnesses. You state that you find 90% of what they teach to be acceptable, and yet you have doubts or disagreements about the other 10%. You state that you have difficulties socially, and that those difficulties are resolved to an extent by association with this group. If it works for you, if you can live with your 90%/10% ratio, then maybe you should go for it. At least you are going in with your eyes open.
  I don’t think it is the purpose of this site to belittle people for beliefs that they hold to honestly. I do think it is the purpose of this site to stop people from feeling guilty for not believing something. I don’t like the attempt at persuasion that goes “but why would you leave Jehovah?”, because I don’t think it is a valid argument. I think it is manipulative. I don’t think it is effective. If you make someone feel guilty for not believing something, that doesn’t make them believe it. At best, it creates a state of incongruence that I feel is more likely to drive someone away from God completely than it is to draw them close to Him.
  
  I have to take issue with your statement that within 2 weeks, you could present information here that you know to be false, and expect those of us who read it to blindly accept it as truth. I don’t think that gives credit to the capacity we have developed for critical thinking. As evidence of that, if your supposition were true, we would most likely be at home underlining Watchtower magazines, not reading and posting on this board.
  
  Think about why you are here. I don’t want to hurt your faith if you truly believe that being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the best thing for you. But I want you to respect that I don’t believe it is for me. It is not that I don’t think I can live up to the high standards, or that I am too lazy to work for the organization. I simply, and honestly, don’t believe what they say.
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  Dismembered

  Greetings Zico,

  :I want to complete an apprenticeship and start to work full time as an electrician, but how can I let them know that I don't want to pioneer anymore?

  That's a great goal. There are not enough electricians in this country. Becoming an electrician will pay the now and upcoming bills. Pioneering/Unpaid Volunteer will waste your valuable time. Go for it kid

  Dismembered
• 

  SWALKER

  Saki:

  And forget about history. Well, not literally, but when it comes to the history of the WTBTS, why bring that up and build a case against it as though the WTBTS is "evil" beacause of it? Like I said in an earlier post, if you base our current efforts to please Jehovah God on the history of a man who had some apparent problems, then you might as well reject the teachings of early faithful servants of God, for their were very bad people as well, having bad history. Or... would it only apply to Organizations?

  At least it was recorded for us to read, and what God thought and did about it! So much of the history of the JW's has been COVERED UP! AND LIED ABOUT! And still is.........

  I'd definitely go for the electrical training, realizing that you need a career and that's a pretty good one!!!

  Swalker (4th generation JW)
• 

  yesidid

  Hi Saki,

  Welcome to the board. Your sincerity is obvious, and I absolutely understand where you are coming from.

  You said in a previous post:

  And forget about history. Well, not literally, but when it comes to the history of the WTBTS, why bring that up and build a case against it as though the WTBTS is "evil" because of it?

  I find that a little hard to understand. Having been a Witness myself for over sixty years I have very vivid recollections of many articles in the society’s literature about the history of the Catholic church. I have included a few quotes in case you missed them. As you see they go back to the 12 th century.

  My thinking is that if it is alright for the society to bring up the Catholic past, why would it be wrong for others to bring up the Witness past?

  *** w00 12/1 p. 3 The Bible—Cherished and Suppressed ***

  On the European mainland, the Catholic Inquisition ruthlessly hunted down "heretical" sects, such as the French Waldenses, and singled them out for persecution because of their habit of preaching "from the gospels and epistles and other sacred scriptures

  *** w05 12/15 p. 15 The Bible in Italian—A Troubled History ***

  As a result, Bible burnings in church squares multiplied after the end of the 16th century. In the minds of the people in general, the Scriptures became a book of the heretics, and that image is still very much alive. Almost all Bibles and Bible commentaries in public and private libraries were destroyed, and for the next 200 years, no Catholic would translate a Bible into Italian.

  *** w95 9/1 p. 30 The Cathari—Were They Christian Martyrs? ***

  In 1231, Pope Gregory IX instituted the papal Inquisition to lend support to the armed struggle. The inquisitorial system was at first based on denouncements and duress and, later, on systematic torture. Its aim was to eradicate what the sword had been unable to destroy. Inquisition judges—were answerable only to the pope.

  *** w97 10/1 p. 11 par. 7 The Word of God Endures Forever ***

  Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)—who actively opposed translation of the Bible into languages used by the common people. In an effort to crush dissent against the authority of the church, the Roman Catholic Council of Toulouse, France, in 1229, decreed that a layman could not possess books of the Bible in the common language. The Inquisition was used aggressively to enforce the decree

  ***

  w02 3/15 p. 22 The Waldenses—From Heresy to Protestantism ***

  In 1229 the Catholic Church completed its Crusade against the Cathari, or Albigenses, in the south of France. The Waldenses next became objects of such efforts. The Inquisition would soon be turned mercilessly against all the church’s opponents.

  Sincerely

  yesidid
• 

  BizzyBee

  Give me 2 weeks only, and in those 2 weeks I can assure you that I can put false information on this site... and ensure everyone breaths it like truth itself. And once done, then you'd be welcome to research it to your hearts content

  .Whoa! You underestimate the collective and individual intellect here. It is awesome....................and far beyond the WTS, because we have access to all WTS info as well as real info...................ie., truth...................