Thank you Jehovah for answered prayers

by Annie Over 194 Replies latest jw friends

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    AuldSoul:

    Your further explanation sets you as the judge of what is and is not rational.

    If you think I am wrong about what should be considered rational, then point out the flaws. I do not see myself as the final arbiter of what is rational or not but I do think my beliefs are rational - if I did not, I would not hold them.

    Therefore, you can start by ruling out anyone who believes that belief in God is rational and you are sure to confirm your prejudice through your arbitrary judgment.

    My argument was not at all that belief in God is irrational or that those who disagree should be dismissed. My argument was that attributing a tediously mundane event to the intervention of a particular deity is not rational. I stand by that.

    But the reality is that most people are not rational according to your standards of rationality, your prejudices are not regarded as rational by the majority.

    Agreed. Once again, beliefs do not become any more rational if they are held by the majority.

    Therefore, your argument never actually reached absurd, unless first you rid the sample pool of everyone who doesn't agree with you.

    It is absurd to believe without evidence that the god of the Hebrews read someone's mind, and changed the universe to avoid a minor inconvenience to that person while simultaneously allowing millions to suffer and die. A billion people may think otherwise, the belief remains irrational and ridiculous.

    Therefore, your "argument" was intellectually elitist ridicule, and nothing more, however much you wish it otherwise.

    I have no problem being an intellectual elitist. I consider intelligence superior to stupidity, knowledge superior to ignorance, reason superior to superstition, skepticism superior to gullibility. I make no apologies for that.

    Using latin phrases (that do not even apply to your statements) to describe your prejudicial and callous responses doesn't alter the reality. You were not using reductio ad absurdum to highlight a flaw. You were using ridicule.

    Call it what you will. My point was that there was no merit in Annie's expressed belief that a Semitic war god interfered with the course of reality in order to ensure the safe return of a woman's purse. I have seen nothing to make me change my mind on that matter, but I will concede (again) that my methods may not be the most effective way of convincing someone they are wrong.

    (You might also want to consider that I never claimed to be using reductio ad absurdum, or even that I was not using ridicule.)

    Does it make you feel better, smarter, like a bigger person to have made Annie Over feel less or appear silly? I believe you want to think better of yourself than that, and you probably believe you used reductio ad absurdum as an argument in this case. But it was actually senseless ridicule of the sort that I have seen often from your fingertips on this forum during the months I have been here.

    Senseless ridicule, now? You might get me to concede that it was ridicule (of an idea, not a person) but hardly senseless. I think, once I got arguing I made some good points, and I think I made them intelligently. I have no desire to make Annie Over or anybody feel small or stupid, but I do want people to stop seeing invisible friends and enemies everywhere.

    Your initial comment was ridicule, not a throwaway comment:

    Can't it be both?

    Your later comments were ridicule, not reductio ad absurdum. Your style of interaction on threads of this sort is ridicule. You just like to believe it is something else. Anything else, it seems, "throwaway comments," "reductio ad absurdum," anything but reality; ridicule. For someone who uses ridicule so frequently, I find it odd that you have such an aversion to being seen as a ridiculer.

    Ah, so everything I write is ridicule, not just in this thread but in all of them? I see. I guess I do want to see it as something else. I want to see it as me expressing my beliefs and questioning other people's claims for the purpose of intellectual enlightenment. But, according to you, that's a delusion. And yet, I can't shake the feeling that I'm something more than the Nelson Muntz of this board. Maybe this is just your new tack. In previous debates with you, I've found you to be tediously pedantic and our debates descended into endless squabbles over semantics until I couldn't take it anymore. This seems similar but with an added layer of hostility I haven't seen before. I'm not sure what purpose it's meant to serve, but the response seems disproportionate to the "crime".

    I'd rather have a debate than a quarrel but I'm more than capable of either.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    funkyderek: I have no desire to make Annie Over or anybody feel small or stupid...
    funkyderek: You might get me to concede that it was ridicule (of an idea, not a person) but hardly senseless.
    AuldSoul: Your initial comment was ridicule, not a throwaway comment...
    funkyderek: Can't it be both?
    ridicule
    verb, transitive
    To expose to ridicule; make fun of.
    Main Entry: ridicule
    Function: transitive verb
    : to make fun of

    No, it can't be both. If it was a throwaway comment, it was senselessly ridiculing. If it was not it was intentionally ridiculing. You tell me, which was it? Either way, it was ridicule. Ridicule has only one purpose, and it isn't a method of argument designed to change minds or perceptions. I felt it was apparent that Annie Over identified closely with what she wrote, and think any sensible person could easily see that making fun of her concept was equivalent to making fun of her, in her perception.

    So, I have a hard time giving a crap about your intention, because your throwaway comment was thoughtless, callous, insensitive, insensible and ridiculing, and your later "argument" was even more demeaning (ridiculing) of a broader group than perhaps you were aware. But if you think you did nothing wrong, I am willing to let the matter rest.

    AuldSoul

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee

    Not to get in between two master debaters here, but I would like to say that in spite of all the chivalry displayed on behalf of Annie, she seems cheerfully undaunted by anyone's comments. Good for her - she's obviously a big girl who knows her own mind and can take what is dished out. I still don't see where anyone insulted her personally, so the oft-used word "ridicule" seems a bit over the top.

    As a four-month lurker here, Annie had to know that crediting Jah with answering her prayer was a provocative stance to take, and it has resulted in a very interesting exchange. And this is a discussion board, not a warm bubble bath. I'm not totally sure how to feel about being lectured to about how to treat 'newbies' - did I miss a memo? - aren't they included in the Posting Guidelines - which do not seem to have been violated in this thread?

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    And this is a discussion board, not a warm bubble bath.

    Amen that. And what most posters screaming about how we have abused and ridiculed this poster fail to realize is that if she had merely stated "Thank god for answered prayers" the response would have been completely different. She CHOSE to use the term "jehovah" in a room full of people whose lives have been demolished in the name of this fictional watchtower god.

    I sincerely doubt that ANYONE could have spent more than 30 seconds reading the posts on this board to realize the obvious ramifications of "praisin' jehoobie" would be in this particular context. Again, for those who seem all to willing to turn a free-thinking discussion board into the "Barney" show, when someone posts an IDEA on a public discussion board, that idea, is automatically FAIR GAME for dissection, analysis, criticism etc etc. Nobody has personally attacked this poster, but if you walk around a bull ring wearing a scarlet red towel, you better expect to see some horns every now and then. We dont come to this board to sing kum-ba-yah, we come for lively debate and critical thinking.

  • detective
    detective

    Now if only Jehovah could score you some matching shoes...

  • ringo5
    ringo5
    Not to get in between two master debaters here, but I would like to say that in spite of all the chivalry displayed on behalf of Annie, she seems cheerfully undaunted by anyone's comments. Good for her - she's obviously a big girl who knows her own mind and can take what is dished out. I still don't see where anyone insulted her personally, so the oft-used word "ridicule" seems a bit over the top.

    As a four-month lurker here, Annie had to know that crediting Jah with answering her prayer was a provocative stance to take, and it has resulted in a very interesting exchange. And this is a discussion board, not a warm bubble bath. I'm not totally sure how to feel about being lectured to about how to treat 'newbies' - did I miss a memo? - aren't they included in the Posting Guidelines - which do not seem to have been violated in this thread?



    Ditto.

    However, Auldsoul seems to have been more offended than Annie and has taken the ridicule of this idea of "Jehovah's preservation of purses" personally to some degree. It's not uncommon for believers to feel personally slighted when the power of their god is questioned (as if he can't defend himself), but not usually when it's intimated that his interests are in purses as opposed to people, as this shows him to have some pretty scewed priorities, and arguing that point of view just belittles that god, rather than elevate him.

    That being said, I have enjoyed most of the exchanges, but would wish to see this idea explained better:

    If even 25% of the world believed in the protective nature of invisible elves persons who believe thusly should be accorded respect for their belief. But that is not the case with this poster. Her belief is not a fringe belief. It is not a silly notion, by virtue of the very commonality you admit. It is much less ridiculous simply by reason of the fact that it is a common perception.



    This is a similar view to "all opinions should be respected as equal and deserving of respect", only it's being argued here that the respect and equality of a certain view is directly proportional to the popularity of that view. (i.e. more popular = more equal)

    Is this actually the thought you wished to convey?

  • startingover
    startingover

    I thoroughly enjoy debates like this, and I frequent them as opposed to the "fluff" stuff. I have noticed that when non-believers challenge a believers cherished belief many times they cry foul and start complaining about being picked on. This thread displayed another twist to it as someone else cried foul for her.

    But what I have noticed is that this situation never seems to be reversed. I can never recall a non-believer complaining about being picked on, they just proceed to lay out their reason and logic. If someone can show me a thread where this happened I would very much like to see it.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    SO:
    YoU mean you've never seen a believer standing up for an unbeliever? Believe it or not it happens...

  • Warlock
    Warlock

    All this for someone who said Jehovah answered her prayers?

    Warlock

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    This is a similar view to "all opinions should be respected as equal and deserving of respect", only it's being argued here that the respect and equality of a certain view is directly proportional to the popularity of that view. (i.e. more popular = more equal)
    Is this actually the thought you wished to convey?

    In my opinion, the assertion in the premise "all opinions should be respected as equal and deserving of respect" is false, because there is a false equivalency between expressions. I did not indicate that all opinions should be respected as equal, I suggest, rather, that all opinions should be respected. The more popular an opinion is the more deserving of respect it is, because the holder of the opinion is less deserving of ridicule and/or disdain for having arrived at the opinion and the opinion itself is less deserving of ridicule and disdain because it is held by a large percentage of the poulation.

    Case in point: Belief in purple dancing unicorns is often compared to belief in God. Is the comparison fair? No. In large measure due to the fact that such a huge segment of human society believes in God whereas only a tiny precentage believes in purple dancing unicorns. Both beliefs are due respect, however, simply because they are held by someone who is deserving of respect. A belief that is more popular is deserving of more respect. Respect does not equate to an evaluation of validity or value, so trying to use the expressions "respect as equals" and "deserving of respect" as synonymous is off the mark as far as my intent is concerned.

    "Deserving of respect" is not 100% contingent on value or validity.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

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