Got any quick 1914 / 607 points?

drew sagan

Tomarrow i'm meeting with a JW friend who is connected to what's going on with these Elders that came over our house and everything else. I can't get into details as to how it works out, but this is the important part. This guy (and Elder) can be a quite reasonable person. I've allready talked to him about how the other Elders acted as he totally agreed they where unreasonable and evaded my questions. He is very confident that he can answer anything I throw at him and is very open to almost talk about anything, including topics that may sound apostate (as long as I make the questions my own).

So I'm going to be sticking hard to the 607 / 1914 debate. It breaks down into a few differant parts

1. Chronology, 587, 539 and 607. Why does so much history point the other way?

2. Daniel 4, does it even have a second fullfillement

3. 70 years, for Babylon or Jerasulam

4. Times of the Gentiles, when did it really start? How can we be sure?

5. Did Christ recieve all things at his Ressurection and Exaltation or only partial?

If there are any quick and easy points you think I should make during this discussion let me know. I especially would like some help with scriptures deailng with point #5. I have some, but anything you can supply will be a major help. Thanks guys and wish me luck!

kid-A

Quick points? No.

But you can expect a 75 page circular thread to evolve from the title of the post alone as soon as 3rd witless sees "607".

For a preview: "You're wrong, I'm right" "No, I'm right, you're wrong!" REPEAT x 10,000 and voila, a bona fide 607 thread !!! LOL

james_woods

Ask them for proof of what they really prophecied for 1914 printed in the written word prior to 1914.

I say old Russell was preaching that Christ came invisibly in 1874, and that the real end of the world was to come in 1914.

It was not until after the fact that they shuffled the deck again and came up with the "invisible presence".

1914 was Russell's personal 1975. Since it did not work (i.e. -was false prophecy), the 607BCE discussion is pointless, as is the 2520 years, and all the rest.

Even Watchtower admits it tacitly - the "generation that saw and understood 1914" drove around in Stutz Bearcats and fur coats, and is dead now along with the Judge, Herr Knorr, and Freddy.

Time to get over it.

kid-A

2 Quick points that require no reference to controversial and ultimately unprovable historical events:

1) CT Russell did his early calculations of 1914 based ENTIRELY on mathematical calculations derived from imperial measurements of interior wall spaces of the Pyramid of Gizeh. This was published in "Thy Kingdom Come". In fact, he arrived at the date 1915 as the original "end of the world" and great tribulation as indicated on several charts in his book.

2) Again, in "Thy Kingdom Come" CT Russell originally cited 1910 as the year when "false religion" would experience tremendous upheaval before turning on the chosen "bible students".

plmkrzy

How can we be sure?

I would like to hear a solid reasonable answer to that question. I've never heard one yet.

Morocco

In no way do I claim to be an expert here, but I am actually going through something that is similar to your situation drew sagan. I just wanted to point out that in the book of Daniel Nebuchadnezzar had a dream about a big tree being cut down and bound with copper bands. The WT puts a lot of stock in this tree symbolizing the group of Jehovah's true worshipers and how it will be bound for so many times. The WT article I was reading the other day, in fact, explicitly said the tree represents true Christianity, but this is false. Right now I can't think of how this is tied in with 1914, but the WT article I read explained it. Basically the Bible, in no uncertain terms, says that the tree in the dream is NOT the worshipers of Jehovah, but it is Nebuchadnezzar and his empire. This tree being the “true Christians” is the foundation for a lot of the WT's understanding of 1914 and since their understanding is inaccurate, everything that follows that is attached to this foundation including 1914, 607, gentile times, etc is incorrect. Rip out the foundation and the whole building will crumble. Perhaps I can find the article when I get home tonight and explain it better.

Daniel 4: 20-22 (NIV) the NWT hasn't altered this passage I just like the NIV

20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the beasts of the field, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds of the air- 22 you, O king, are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

M.J.

1) CT Russell did his early calculations of 1914 based ENTIRELY on mathematical calculations derived from imperial measurements of interior wall spaces of the Pyramid of Gizeh. This was published in "Thy Kingdom Come". In fact, he arrived at the date 1915 as the original "end of the world" and great tribulation as indicated on several charts in his book.

I don't believe this is correct at all. Russell got the 1914 date from former Millerite Nelson Barbour. I think Russell may have conveniently fit the pyramid numbers to this pre-determined date. And don't think that this stuff was created in a vacuum either. Coming up with ways of synthesizing bible prophecy with pyramidology was probably popular among all kinds of nut cases at the time.

Rooster

What about the teaching on 1799? Have you read about this?

KW13

Right, check the best of threads, i found some really useful ones in there.

Try adding up the reigns of the Babylonian kings - they add up to 605.

If you take the view, the surrounding nations (Jeremiah 25) were involved in the 70 years, this ties in with when Nebuchadnezzar took the throne e.t.c (609 being when babylon defeated the assyrians)

drew sagan

Does anybody have the link to that thread where someone added up the list of kings and got 605 (mentioned by the above poster?) Thanks

Also, what article where you reading Morocco? I thought the JWs said the tree represented Jehovahs sovereignty, not his worshipers. I would like to look at that artcle.

Got any quick 1914 / 607 points?

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