Got any quick 1914 / 607 points?

by drew sagan 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  AlanF

  Excellent summary, TheListener!

  To add a bit to what you said about 2 Chronicles 36:20, the passage unambiguously states that the Jews would be servants to Nebuchadnezzar and his dynasty -- not to kings from the Persian dynasty of Cyrus. Indeed, it explicitly states that this servitude would be until the royalty of Persia began to reign. This eliminates any possibility that the Jews were in servitude to Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty after 539 B.C. Putting this together with the unambiguous statements of Jeremiah 25:11, 12 and Daniel 5, it's a killer for Watchtower claims.

  kid-A said:

  : CT Russell did his early calculations of 1914 based ENTIRELY on mathematical calculations derived from imperial measurements of interior wall spaces of the Pyramid of Gizeh.

  Not true. M.J.'s comments are correct.

  The 1914 chronology was first published by Nelson Barbour just after mid-1875. Russell learned about Barbour's calculations in early 1876, got together with Barbour, and published his own version of the "Gentile times chronology" in the October 1876 issue of The Bible Examiner. In 1877 the two of them published Three Worlds, in which this nonsense was set forth in more detail. It was not until 1880 that Russell mentioned the Great Pyramid at all, in the September, 1880 issue of Zion's Watch Tower (p. 135, Reprints). Here he said the the Pyramid's topstone represented Christ, and the rest of the Pyrimad represented Christ's body of anointed followers. This was apparently due to Russell's reading Joseph Seiss' book Miracle in Stone which was published in 1877. Russell's next mention of the Great Pyramid was in the May, 1881 issue of Zion's Watch Tower (pp. 224-5, Reprints). Here he claimed that various measurements taken in the "grand gallery" represented the years 1874, 1878 and 1881 -- no mention of 1914 -- which were prominent in his prophetic scheme at that time. So far as I can see from the Reprints Index, there are no further mentions of dates in connection with the Pyramid until after Russell published Thy Kingdom Come in 1891.

  In view of the above facts, Russell did not base his 1914 chronology on the Great Pyramid, but used it for 'corroboration'.

  AlanF
• 

  jwfacts

  This is the only propecy that is used to support a specific "day" for the Last Days to start. What indication is there that it is a Last Days prophecy? Every single prophecy in Daniel had only one fulfilment yet the Watchtower claims Daniel 4 should have two fulfilments.

  Daniel 2: An immense image representing kingdoms

  Daniel 4: Seven times representing Nebuchadnezzar

  Daniel 5: Writing on the wall foretelling Babylon’s immediate destruction

  Daniel 7: Four beasts being 4 world powers

  Daniel 9: Seventy weeks foreshadowing Christ’s arrival

  Daniel 11: Kings of the North and South

  Why would Daniel 4 have a second fulfilment when all other prophecies had but one fulfilment?

  Also why does the Watchtower lie about its 1914 history.

  Yearbook 1975 p.37 True to such calculations, 1914 did mark the end of those times and the birth of God's kingdom in heaven with Christ Jesus as king. Just think of it! Jehovah granted his people that knowledge nearly four decades before those times expired.”

  Yet see the Watchtower 1894 July 15 “But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning , but for the end of the time of trouble .

  Prophecy (1929) 1,589,000 ed. p.65 “The scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D.”
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  KW13

  Nabonidus – 17 Years

  *** Insight Vol.2 p.457 Nabonidus ***

  *** Watchtower 1968 August 15 pp.491-492 The Book of Truthful Historical Dates ***

  Labashi Marduk – Less than 9 Months

  ***w65 29; bf 183-4***

  Neriglissar – 4 Years

  *** Watchtower 1965 January 1 p.29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived ***

  Evil-Merodach – 2 Years

  *** Watchtower 1965 January 1 p.29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived ***

  *** Insight Volume 1 p.453 Chronology ***

  Nebuchadnezzar II -- 43 year reign

  *** Insight Volume 2 p.480 Nebuchadnezzar ***

  *** Watchtower 2000 May 15 p.12 Pay Attention to God's Prophetic Word for Our Day ***

  *** Watchtower 1986 November 1 p.5 A Dream Reveals How Late It Is ***

  *** Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! (book, 1999) chap. 7 pp.99-100 Four Words That Changed the World ***

  *** Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! (book, 1999) chap. 4 pp. 50-51 The Rise and Fall of an Immense Image ***

  *** Insight Volume 1 pp.238-239 Babylon ***

  *** Insight Volume 2 p.481 Nebuchadnezzar ***
• 

  plmkrzy

  Has anbody read from this website?

  The 70th weeks of Daniel Delusion About 607 B.C. Daniel said 70 Weeks (before the Window closes for the Jews)
  
  
  We at Bible Probe believe that the 70 weeks of the Daniel Prophecy have nothing to do with tribulation and the antichrist. There is no text in the Bible that teaches a 7-year tribulation. Daniel 9:27 speaks of nothing to do with an antichrist, a rebuilt Jewish Temple, or even tribulation. Nothing! That's because it is all about Jesus Christ, the Messiah AND the Jewish people.

  The link below gives the breakdown of the timeline.

  http://bibleprobe.com/daniel1.htm
• 

  Lady Liberty

  Dear Drew,

  Hopefully it is not too late to get you the chart you were looking for. I wasn't sure if anyone posted it for you but here is the one I made and used. It is from a old post:

  Hi everyone,

  I just made this chart for my brother-in-law using the Bible as well as the book entitled Assyrian & Babylonian Chronicles by A.K. Grayson printed in 1975. Grayson is a world renound expert used to decipher the Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles for the British Museum. I checked out this book from the local library. Although they had to send away to a College University for it. A interesting note: the Society uses this very book in the Insight Vol.2 under Nebuchadnezzar to support their dates. When I got this book, it was for the purpose of checking their dates and quotes of this author. As you will see by this chart, they have misquoted him to serve their own deceitful purpose! I included scriptures that support the chronicles. Like I said, I made this for my brother-in-law, but thought someone out there might be able to use it.

  Have a great night!

  Lady Liberty

  The Seventy Years: 609 to 539 BCE

  609- Nabopolassars 17 th reignal year. Babylon was dominating all surrounding nations. See Jer. 25:11, 25:17- 26. 27:6-8, 12-13(All the nations will have to SERVE the king of Babylon seventy years.) The 70 years begin. ( Babylonian Chronicle 3- BM 21901)

  607- Nabopolassars 19 th reignal year. Nebuchadnessar was not even in power yet! He was only a crowned prince at this time. (Babylonian Chronicle 4 –BM 22047)

  605- Nabopolassars 21 st reignal year. Battle of Carchemish , between Egypt and Babylon. Nabopolassar dies and Nebuchadnezar accends the thrown. This is year 0 for Nebuchadnezzars reign. Daniel finds himself exiled to Babylon, as well as the Royal offspring of Jerusalem, the utensils of the house of Jehovah were carried to Babylon. See Daniel 1- 2:1. Jer. 29:1,20 (Babylonian Chronicle 5- BM 21946)

  603- Nebuchadnezzars second reignal year. See. Dan. 2:1

  586/587- Jerusalem burned. Nebuchadnessars ninteenth reignal year. See Jer. 52:12-16 (There were still lowly ones left remaining in the city.)

  562-End of Nebuchadnezzars reign.

  557-Neriglissars third reignal year. ( Chronicle 6 –BM 25124)

  556- Nabonidus becomes King. (Nabonidus Chronicle 7- BM35382)

  539- 70 are fullfilled. Nabonidus is King of Babylon at this time. Cyrus overtakes Babylon in one night. Handwriting on the wall. Jews released from servitude. See- Dan. 5:25-26 Jer. 25: 12 ( Nabonidus Chronicle: Chronicle 7-BM 36304)
• 

  drew sagan

  Just wanted to say that I didn't meet with my friend today, we've postponed it untill friday. That gives me a little bit more time. Thanks for what you guys have pointed out, it will be quite helpful.
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  kid-A

  Alan,

  If CT Russell explicitely laid out the 607 chronology prior to 1891, I will happily concede. However, I have an original copy of Thy Kingdom Come and no mention of this chronology (resembling anything currently used by the WTS vis-a-vis 607 is mentioned in it. Certainly he wrote this as "corroborative evidence", but he presented the information as stand alone evidence for 1914, regardless of 607.

  Second, you stated that Russell made no mention of 1914 in his Pyramid chapter, but in reality, he discussed this date exhaustively in this very same chapter, directly in reference to 1914:

  From Thy Kingdom Come, page 364, Line 5: "Is not this a most remarkable agreement between this stone "witness" and the bible? The dates, October 1874, and October, 1881, are exact, while the date 1910, though not furnished in the scriptures, seems more than a reasonable one for some important event in the Church's experience and final testing, while A.D. 1914 is apparently well-defined as its close, after which the worlds greatest trouble is due, in which some of the 'great multitude' may have a share. And in this connection let us remember that this date limit-A.D. 1914- must not only witness the completion of the selection and trial and glorification of the entire body of Christ...."

  He continues on the same page, line 29: The four years from 1910 to the end of 1914, indicated thus in the Great Pyramid, will doubtless be a time of "fiery trial" upon the Church (1 Cor. 3:15) preceding the anarchy of the world, which cannot last long".....

  >here he not only reiterates the role of the pyramid in the 1914 prediction, but adds another fabrication, "1910", which to my knowledge, was never again mentioned as having any significance whatsoever in subsequent WTS publications.

  Thus while I have no doubt Russell did not create 1914 in a vacuum, he certainly ripped some of his dates off of Barbour, however, based on the contents of Thy Kingdom Come, published in 1891, 607 appeared to have had no role in his 1914 calculations, and if it did, I would be happy to see the citations of quotes where these calculations were published, prior to 1891.
• 

  kid-A

  And if Alan or anyone else knows, when was the first appearance of the current WTS 607 chronology published using the fake 607 date? Did Russell ever directly use this date?
• 

  AlanF

  kid-A said:

  : If CT Russell explicitely laid out the 607 chronology prior to 1891, I will happily concede.

  Actually, he laid out the 606 chronology in 1876. For the Watchtower Society's take on this, see the Proclaimers book, page 135.

  : However, I have an original copy of Thy Kingdom Come and no mention of this chronology (resembling anything currently used by the WTS vis-a-vis 607 is mentioned in it.

  What?

  : Certainly he wrote this as "corroborative evidence", but he presented the information as stand alone evidence for 1914, regardless of 607.

  He did, but this was after he wrote a huge amount of stuff about 1914 and the basis for it, in Zion's Watch Tower, in the 1889 book The Time Is At Hand, and various other publications.

  : Second, you stated that Russell made no mention of 1914 in his Pyramid chapter,

  No, I did not. Read my post again carefully. I said that he made no mention of 1914 in his article on the Great Pyramid in the May, 1881 issue of Zion's Watch Tower. I also said that, so far as I can see from the Reprints Index, there are no further mentions of dates in connection with the Pyramid until after Russell published Thy Kingdom Come in 1891. The Reprints Index (I'm assuming you know what Watchtower Reprints is) contains an index of material that appeared in Zion's Watch Tower, but it does not index Russell's books or other publications.

  : but in reality, he discussed this date exhaustively in this very same chapter, directly in reference to 1914:

  Yes, I'm aware of all that.

  : Thus while I have no doubt Russell did not create 1914 in a vacuum, he certainly ripped some of his dates off of Barbour, however, based on the contents of Thy Kingdom Come, published in 1891, 607 appeared to have had no role in his 1914 calculations, and if it did, I would be happy to see the citations of quotes where these calculations were published, prior to 1891.

  For starters, see my article "Notes on False Prophets" here: http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part-1-jws-beliefs-about-chronology-in.html . Search for things like "Barbour", "1914" and so forth.

  : And if Alan or anyone else knows, when was the first appearance of the current WTS 607 chronology published using the fake 607 date? Did Russell ever directly use this date?

  The official claim is that the date was changed from 606 to 607 in 1943. However, the truth is far more complicated and shows clearly both the stupidity and gross dishonesty of Watchtower writers. For a detailed look, see my article "The Evolution of 606 to 607 B.C.E. in Watchtower Chronology" here: http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-of-606-to-607-bce-in.html . When you get to the part where I describe the incredible affrontery of Fred Franz in lying to his readers, you'll be both amused and angered, I think.

  In a nutshell, in 1913 Morton Edgar published his 2nd volume of Great Pyramid Passages, where he stated explicitly that the Gentile times began in 607 B.C. -- not in 606. Shortly after that, P. S. L. Johnson pointed this problem out to Russell, but because 1914 was upon them, and the new versions of Studies in the Scriptures were already typeset, Russell did nothing with the information. In the 1917 book The Finished Mystery, Fisher and Woodworth also used the 607 date. Rutherford, however, continued using 606 in his own writings. In 1943, after Rutherford's passing, Fred Franz embarked upon a program of changing all of Russell's old chronology. He changed the date for the beginning of the Gentile times from 606 to 607, but retained 606 as the date of Jerusalem's destruction (!) . In 1944 Franz changed the date for Jerusalem's destruction to 607. The process was not complete until about 1955.

  AlanF
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  TD

  
  

  kid-A,

  As Alan said, Russell came across Barbour's nonsense through Herald of the Morning around January of 1876. He paid Barbour's expenses to come to Philidelphia to meet with him and explain it. Russell bought into it hook, line, and sinker and in 1877 the two jointly (Barbour wrote it, Russell paid for it) published Three Worlds which set forth this chronology in detail.

  For example, on page 83 the core formula is explicitly laid out:

  “The seventy years captivity ended in the first year of Cyrus, which was B.C. 536. They therefore commenced seventy years before, or B.C. 606. Hence it was in B.C. 606 that God’s kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B.C. 606 will end in A.D. 1914, or forty years from 1874; and this forty years upon which we have now entered is to be such “a time of trouble as never was since there was a nation.”

  The pyramidology did not come until some years after this as one of several corroborative lines of reasoning.

  Of course, JW's have since adjusted the first year of Cyrus from 536BC to 538BC to agree with secular history and they've (conveniently) relocated the terminus of the 70 years to 537BC, thus also moving the fall of Jerusalem back to 607BC. However in all other respects this (The 2520 year count from the fall of Jerusalem to 1914) is exactly what JW's still believe today.