Is it possible to go to university and still come out a dub? (page 3)

itsallgoodnow

yes of course many JWs finish college still JWs. probably most do IMO. Just because you go to college doesn't mean you automatically use your new thinking skills on JW teachings. There is still a switch in a person's brain that says "stop, I will not analyze this". And you don't need a college degree to figure out the truth about JWs, either.

I don't think a college degree changes a person's religious beliefs, makes a person more or less religious, or even increases their intelligence. It trains them how to analyze, how to write, how to work hard and how to research things, or on the flip side, how to use their sexual power or cheat to get ahead in life. Many people can learn all of that and still remain the backward people they always were.

scotsman

I didn't attend uni until I was already an elder and although it was 8 months into the course that I dropped out of being a dub, it wasn't because of anything I was learning at uni. Lots of people go through uni without being required to think, dubs included.

I regret that my leaving the witnesses having started uni may have made it hard for any witnesses that wanted to follow me there. A friend from my congregation went to uni 2 years after me, with much disapproval and hey presto, she left the Witnesses too. I doubt anyone from the Muirhouse congregation will be allowed to go to uni now.

Crumpet

Sorry I should have said I meant real universities - not Scottish ones!

(LOL just teasing - all Scots are in the doghouse today because of Mr C!)

diamondblue1974

It is very possible crumpet. JWS are warned (cautioned) about higher learning (INSTITUTIONS, not college courses) because pursuing the HIGHER education that takes yrs of study and dedication can and alot of times cause individuals to FORGET about God. Some stop seeking FIRST the Kingdom and when that happens ...well it is a domino effect, worldly ways tend to creep in unknowingly and the next thing a person knows their priorities are all backwards. Again that could and is very likely to happen but it is not a definite. Some manage to pull it off (fortunately) but are doing it at a very high risk to themselves.

Isnt it more accurate that the WTS wish for their members to avoid INSTITUTIONS which promote independent learning and critical thinking?

Translated your response (respectfully) should read.

'JWs are discouraged from going to university with subtle internal social pressure because pursuing higher education takes effort and can cause students to consider wider issues beside those advocated by the WTS. When this happens it allows more freedom of thought and action and allows individuals to be critical and to question and then to re-evaluate all that they have been spoonfed since the beginning. This then stops them from going out buying books and giving them away to members of the public and therefore is in contrast with the business interests of the conglomerate.'

DB74

AlanF

Sure, it's possble to remain a Dub after going to university. It's even pretty likely, judging by experience.

I think the more important question is whether someone should remain a Dub after going. In a decent college curriculum one is supposed to be taught how to think, along with a bunch of facts. One should come out of such a program of study with a healthy skepticism about all topics that are not, in some sense, scientifically demonstrable. Writing courses are part of most decent programs, and a good teacher will show students how to write logical essays laden with facts and solid reasoning. It's painful for many students to go through this, because their writing may be torn to pieces at first, especially if other students are invited to critique each other's essays. Furthermore, all decent programs of study require students to analyze data of some sort, whether that be the content of books, historical information or the results of scientific study, and to organize that data into a coherent form.

As has been said, many people fail to absorb what they ought to in college, and retain long held but stupid religious beliefs despite all evidence to the contrary. But that's true of all people who hold silly beliefs, not just Dubs or Fundamentlists of various stripes.

AlanF

fullofdoubtnow

'JWs are discouraged from going to university with subtle internal social pressure because pursuing higher education takes effort and can cause students to consider wider issues beside those advocated by the WTS. When this happens it allows more freedom of thought and action and allows individuals to be critical and to question and then to re-evaluate all that they have been spoonfed since the beginning. This then stops them from going out buying books and giving them away to members of the public and therefore is in contrast with the business interests of the conglomerate

That's exactly how it is DB. I lost count of the number of times the teens in our kh were actively discouraged from pursuing higher education. They were told instead to leave school at 16, work part - time, make pioneering and later Bethel their goal. It was always the same crap spewing from the elders mouths - "what's the point of looking for a degree? What use is it, with armageddon just around the corner? Higher education will endanger you spiritually".

The worst part of it is, a lot of the kids fell for it, and left school without any real qualifications. A lot of them are window cleaners now, or labourers in the building trade.

Sorry I should have said I meant real universities - not Scottish ones!
(LOL just teasing - all Scots are in the doghouse today because of Mr C!)

lol Crumpet Mind you, I've gone off the Irish a bit this week since they took Trev away from me until Saturday lol

serendipity

I graduated from uni while being a JW. It was my post uni experiences that led me down the long road out. I didn't apply what I learned to my beliefs.

atypical

I read somewhere that the human brain is partitioned - that's why a person can be smart enough to build a nuclear bomb and at the same time believe it makes sense to strap it to himself for the sake of his religious beliefs as someone above me said. When you learn new things and ideas, your brain doesn't always force you to reconcile them with everything else that you have been taught to believe. It's like different books in the same library.

I agree that for many it takes a certain personal experience to highlight the conflict between reality and what we were taught as jws.

cognizant dissident

To some degree I think it also depends on what you are studying. Someone studying ethics, philosophy, psychology, and various sciences are more likely to be exposed to new information and critical thinking skills that cause them to re-evaluate how they "know" what they know and how their beliefs have been formed and influenced over the years. At least, that's how it started for me. Courage to look honestly at opposing opinions such as those found on AJWRB and JWD was the end. I can't say the courses I took in accounting and business administration after I had to transfer out of the sciences, really encouraged the same kind of reflection on my beliefs. So definitely, what you study makes a difference.

Cog

daniel-p

I think he mainly studied languages so that he could be fluent wherever he ended up.

General education only takes about 2 years - and in the case of your friend would have been the only coursework that would have exposed him to evolution and psychology (which are usually the most thought-provoking topics for JW's). Of course, in the study of linguistics he may have come across some stuff about the origins of words and languages which would have led to evolutionary theory, but it could have easily been over-looked.

I see a lot of people at college (most students, actually) who just learn what they want to learn and block out everything else that might question what they already believe, JW or not. The course that first started to question some of my beliefs directly was an English course, actually: Critical Thinking. It felt like everything in that course applied directly to me and every class I got almost panicky inside as I felt my negative reaction to those challenges.

EDIT: the 2-year general education coursework may not apply since you are in the UK, although I assume it's similar.

Is it possible to go to university and still come out a dub?

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