The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson


    1 John 2:18 "Young children, it is the LAST HOUR, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the LAST HOUR."

    1 Peter. 1:5, 20 "...who are being safeguarded by God's power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the LAST PERIOD OF TIME." "True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was MADE MANIFEST at the END OF THE TIMES for the sake of YOU who through him are believers in God..."

    Acts 2:16-17 "On the contrary, THIS is what was said through the prophet Joel, 'And in the LAST DAYS,' God says, 'I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughers will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dream...And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; the sun will be turned into darkness and moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives..."

    James 5:3 "Something like fire is what YOU have stored up in the LAST DAYS."

    Jude 17-18 "As for YOU, beloved ones, call to mind the sayings that have been PREVIOUSLY spoken by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, how they used to SAY to YOU: "in the LAST TIME there will be ridiculers, proceeding according to their own desires for ungodly things."

    Heb. 1:1-2 "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the END OF THESE DAYS SPOKEN to us BY means of a SON..."

    How can we conclude that the LAST DAYS refer only to the period from 1914? All these writers believed that they already were living in the last days!

  • plmkrzy
  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    Thanks for the links, I am doing my homework right now, so I don't really have time to look up anything. I take an occasional break and come here, but it is back to work very soon after.

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    My thought in why I am interested in knowing is I wonder what the 5 years before 1914 was like and the 5 years following 1914 was like regarding earthquakes. If 1914 was some magical date and Satan was so pissed off during that time, I would think there would be a HUGE increase of number, deaths, and destruction as a result of earthquakes in the five years following 1914 than the five years before 1914. Maybe there was a huge increase, I don't know.

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    auldsoul: 1) Jesus was the rider of the white horse. The account of the four horsemen does not demonstrate who it was that gave this horseman a crown. The description the JWs give of acts that would correspond to a war king carrying out a conquest to completion is simply silly. Winning court cases? Saving some people who were correctly accused of seditious acts against their government? Building Kingdom Halls and branches? Judging sheep and goats? Your "War King" hasn't been waging a war over the past 100 years.

    This was a key speculation, because it compelled you to tie together two portions of Scripture that are not tied together and come up with incorrect and unsubstantiable assumptions. We both know you didn't come up with these, but you seem determined to keep up that pretense so I will let you.

    Revelation 19 confirms who the rider of the white horse is. If you can show us a scripture that proves that someone else might be riding on a white horse then by all means please show us. Since you brought it up and so you want claim that I didn't answer you let me go into great detail for you.

    Revelation 6:2 tells us, "And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest." Questions that need to be answered are: Who is the rider? Why does he have a bow and is given a crown? When does the ride begin and for what purpose?

    Many say it is Satan upon the white horse. However, is there any scriptural support for this? I have found none. But here is what we do find in the Bible about one riding on a white horse. At Revelation 19:11-13, “And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.”

    It is quite apparent from the description that this is none other than Jesus Christ. He is the rider of this white horse. If we allow the Bible to interpret itself we can only conclude that the rider of the white horse in Revelation 6 must also be Jesus Christ and no one else. Is there any Biblical proof that shows otherwise?

    Obviously the rider being given a crown means that he is receiving authority or kingship. But what is his purpose when beginning this ride in Revelation chapter 6? Here is what seems to be a parallel scripture with similar wording: Psalm 110:1
    “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

    Notice the phrases: 'subduing in the midst of your enemies' and 'conquering and to complete his conquest'. The wording seems to be very similar. Jesus is riding to conquer and to subdue. Also notice that he comes forth from Zion, the place where the kings of Jehovah ruled from in Judah. Apparently Revelation 6 and Psalm 110 are describing the same event, the beginning of his ride on the white horse as king.

    Notice the result of his subduing in the midst of his enemies in verse 3 of Psalm 110: "Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, You have your company of young men just like dewdrops." Jesus is collecting his people together and many are offering themselves willingly to become part of that great ‘military force’ of praisers of Jehovah. That is the first accomplishments of his subduing in the midst of his enemies and conquering and to complete his conquest. Of course as the ride continues he will execute his judgments upon mankind with the long sword.

    Isaiah chapter 41 offers further proof of this. It concerns God collecting his people, Abraham's seed. Notice the similar wording as Psalm 110: Isa. 41:1 “Attend to me in silence, YOU islands; and let national groups themselves regain power. Let them approach. At that time let them speak. Let us come up close together for the judgment itself.”2 “Who has roused up [someone] from the sunrise? [Who] proceeded in righteousness to call him to His feet, to give before him the nations, and to make [him] go subduing even kings?"

    Jesus and Jehovah are spoken of as the kings from the sunrise. (Rev 16:12) Again the word subding is used. Jesus subdues the kings of this world as they are powerless to stop the gathering of his people. He also subdues those who will be kings in the Kingdom of God.

    Isa 41:8,9 goes on to describe the gathering of God's people. “But you, O Israel, are my servant, you, O Jacob, whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend; 9 you, whom I have taken hold of from the extremities of the earth, and you, whom I have called even from the remote parts of it. And so I said to you, ‘You are my servant; I have chosen you, and I have not rejected you."

    From these scriptures we can only conclude that Jesus begins his ride by gathering his chosen ones together. That is how his conquering and subduing in the midst of his enemies begins.

    Why is Jesus spoken of as having a bow rather than a sword in the early part of his ride? In the latter part of his ride at the destruction of his enemies at Rev 19:15 we find: "And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it," So we can conclude that the sword is for destroying. But what of the bow?

    The bow is a long-range weapon. It indicates that his enemies are still far off. He does not here in Revelation 6 have his sword for up close combat to destroy the wicked. So Jesus ride begins not with the destruction of the wicked but instead with the gathering his people.

    But his having a bow would also imply that he would have a quiver to hold his arrows. Notice the comparison made at Isaiah 49:1 "Listen to me, O YOU islands, and pay attention, YOU national groups far away. Jehovah himself has called me even from the belly. From the inward parts of my mother he has made mention of my name. 2 And he proceeded to make my mouth like a sharp sword. In the shadow of his hand he has hidden me. And he gradually made me a polished arrow. He concealed me in his own quiver. 3 And he went on to say to me: “You are my servant, O Israel, you the one in whom I shall show my beauty.”

    Do you see that Israel, God's people, is likened to a polished arrow? And Jesus is concealing that arrow in his quiver. How well the scripture above applies to Jehovah's Witnesses in modern times also! Jesus has collected his people together and has polished them by ridding them of Babylonish and Pagan teachings.

    And notice Psalms 127:3-5 comparing arrows to sons.
    "Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah; The fruitage of the belly is a reward. 4 Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man, So are the sons of youth. 5 Happy is the able-bodied man that has filled his quiver with them. They will not be ashamed, For they will speak with enemies in the gate."

    You will note a number of applicable points.
    1. Sons are like arrows in the hand of a mighty man.
    2. Happy is the one that has a quiver that is full of those sons.
    3. And they will speak with enemies in the gate.

    Jehovah and Jesus are for a fact mighty. The quiver gets full of His sons, His people. And those statements can certainly apply to God's sons as they speak to 'enemies in the gate'. They are a reply for God to his enemy Satan that there are ones who will be faithful to Him. As Prov. 27:11 says "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me."

    And finally we can add Psalm 45 as further proof. Speaking about the anointed King it says: 4 "And in your splendor go on to success; Ride in the cause of truth and humility [and] righteousness, And your right hand will instruct you in fear-inspiring things. 5 Your arrows are sharp—under you peoples keep falling— In the heart of the enemies of the king. 6 God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever; The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness."

    The arrows can go straight to the heart of the enemies causing people to fall under the feet of Jesus the King and of course the subduing of his enemies enables Christ to gather his people and complete his conquest,

    What can we conclude? Jesus’ ride on the white horse began way back when he began to collect his ‘polished arrow’ or servants together.

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    And auldsoul how many times have we already been over the part about Jesus being a king before 1914. Of course he is king. He is king over his people. He was exalted above all authority and kings when ressurected. There is not another name in which we can get salvation.

    But it is clear from Rev 6, 11, 12, Daniel 7:13,14, Luke 19 and others that we have been over numerous times that he receives kingly power at a later date as king of God's Messianic kingdom. Why do you act like this has not already been answered. Why do you want things repeated over and over again?

  • jayhawk1
  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Thirdwitness,

    And when might that be when the rider on the white horse began to gather his servants? Did Jesus have no servants in the first century?

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    And remember death of Pixies said: "All" is idiomatic in Greek, it can easily easily be understood in a certain context and often has exclusions. There is no reason to think that this "all" authority must include the authority of the Davidic Kingship. One does not have to search hard to see "all" pertain to just "some" in the GNT/LXX. Dr. Strong is a putz, but here commenting on pas/panta, he makes good sense: ... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... "

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Kenn: And when might that be when the rider on the white horse began to gather his servants? Did Jesus have no servants in the first century?

    Of course he did. But then the great apostasy set in and the wheat and the weeds grew together and there was a need to separate and gather his people and and get them out of Babylon the Great and refine them for the great preaching work that lay ahead just as was foretold.

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