About the NGO-thing : I don`t think Thirdwitness really cares what the form says, or what criterias had to be fulfilled to be an NGO. To Thirdwitness and others like him, the point is blind obedience to the organisation! He can make up any excuse at all, no matter how farfetched, and not only try to passit of as "the truth", but to actually believe in it himself! It`s called being a cultmember...
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
AuldSoul
(1) When did Jesus become king of God's heavenly Messianic Kingdom?
(2) When did Jehovah begin ruling through Jesus as king of God's kingdom? (3) Was it 33CE? (4) If so, Was it before he went to heaven or after? (5) Was it after John wrote Revelation?
(6) When did Jesus get the crown? (7) Was it 33CE when he was given all authority on earth? (8) Or was it after he was given all authority on earth then he went up to heaven and came on a cloud and appeared before Jehovah as told in Daniel 7:13,14 and received rulership and power?
(9) Or was it after Revelation was written when in the future he would receive a crown as Rev 6 shows? (10) Or was it as recorded in Rev 11 and 12 which were prophesying events that would take place after 33CE when the 'kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ'? (11) Or was it before Revelation 11 where it said that Jehovah has taken His great power and begun ruling as king?
(12) Was it before his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet or after? (13) Did he become king of God's kingdom before 61CE while still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool or not? (14) In other words, was he already king of God's kingdom in 33CE still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool for his feet in 61CE as Paul said. Your beliefs are very confusing and contradictory.I haven't stated very many beliefs, thirdwitness. Your confusion is arising from trying to force me into stating a cohesive theology that I can declare as the one and only truth which supplants yours. The reason you believe I am contradicting myself is because you confuse discussion of ideas with statements of fact. That is because you have been trained toward sophistry and sophistic reasoning. I used to have the same disease of the mind. I recognize the symptoms.
There is help for you.
I want to start by pointing out that I have yet MANY outstanding question awaiting your reply. I will let this post stand as my reason for not honoring any further questions from you until you answer mine. Most of these I have answered already, but I will do so again.
(1) When did Jesus become king of God's heavenly Messianic Kingdom?
The exact day and hour is unknown, but the season is clearly determined by the fulfillment of prophecy surrounding it and by Jesus fulfilling a promise to his disciples. He was AT LEAST enthroned as the Messianic king by Pentecost 33 CE. He was, from this time forward, only ruling over willing earthly subjects—specifically those who believed the account about his annointing and who repented. In his speech following the infilling of the Holy Ghost, Peter states that Joel 2:28-32 is being fulfilled and then brings up Psalm 110:1. The Last Days had begun (Acts 2; Acts 7:54-60; Ephesians 1:15-23; Hebrews 1:1-2:9)
Ambassadors require a ruler to represent to the land in which they dwell as alien residents. (2 Corinthians 5:20-6:2; 1 Peter 2:7-12) At the time of Paul's writing was the day of salvation, the especially acceptable time. The Corinthians were in no danger from the destruction of Jerusalem so that could not have been his meaning. You will find that to be the case with many of the passages I cite. They had nothing to do with Jerusalem's destruction.
(2) When did Jehovah begin ruling through Jesus as king of God's kingdom? (3) Was it 33CE? (4) If so, Was it before he went to heaven or after? (5) Was it after John wrote Revelation?
In what sense? Jesus first formed a kingdom, a chosen nation, a royal priesthood over which to rule while subduing through persuasion in the midst of his enemies. (Psalm 110:4; 1 Peter 2:7-12) If that is the kingdom you are referring to, then yes. He transferred people into this kingdom at Penetcost 33 CE. (Colossians 1:9-20) He formed the kingdom (the scope of dominion) after he went to heaven, but already knew who some of the subjects were prior to his ascension. This was before John wrote Revelation.
That's five, so far. Now, you answer five of mine.
AuldSoul
-
AlanF
The fact that Revelation has nothing to do with anything going on today is proved by a simple little passage that the Watchtower Society and its defenders never really address. They use Revelation 6 to justify their claims about "the last days" beginning in 1914, but it contains this fatal little passage. Note Revelation 6:1-8 (from NIV):
1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. 3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. 5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" 7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Now, it's obvious that massive death by "the wild beasts of the earth" is not exactly a serious problem today. In fact, because of the severe cutting back on the number of these "wild beasts", it's rare in most countries for anyone even to meet up with one. Since this prophecy is clearly not being fulfilled today, neither is the rest of Revelation 6, or the other parts of Revelation that the JWs claim are directly related.
It will be amusing to see what thirdwitness does with this.
For anyone interested, I'll be away over the Labor Day holiday and will not likely be reading this board.
AlanF
-
zagor
BTW, the Society knows, too. They aren't admitting it, but they know. The CO who twice visited me asked whether I knew it was okay for them to use the library. I responded, "Sure it was. Just as it would be fine for a JW to decide to go see the artwokr in the Basilica of St. Peter. But if a representative from the Vatican was blocking the entrance and requiring that people first Associate to the Vatican or to the Vatican Department of Public Information, would it still be okay to look at the art? Could I Associate to the Vatican Department of Public Information to look at the artwork?"
Thank you AuldSoul, I haven't seen a gem like that in awhile, pure gold. Keep them coming.
-
zagor
What J-dubs don't understand, and to put it in biblical context, is that WTBS ass-ociation with UN amounts to the same thing like when Jewish kings relied on, I think, Egypt to save them from Babylonian armies - i.e. SPIRITUAL FORNICATION, and yet they dare to disfellowship their members for a lesser sin of physical fornication.
-
thirdwitness
I think thats pretty much a wrap on the 607/1914/7times/parousia info. I believe all onlookers can see what the result of this discussion has been. If you want to discuss NGO we should go here:
-
AuldSoul
AuldSoul: That's five, so far. Now, you answer five of mine.
thirdwitness: I think thats pretty much a wrap on the 607/1914/7times/parousia info.
I still have unanswered questions for you on this topic, sport. You owe me five.
AuldSoul
-
stevenyc
thirdwitness: I think thats pretty much a wrap on the 607/1914/7times/parousia info. ; I believe all onlookers can see what the result of this discussion has been.
Yep, you've been roasted my friend!
607 was wrong.
1914 was not prophesied.
7 times Daniel had nothing to do with anything but king Neb.
And, parousia, in the context, meant Jesus' coming.
steve
-
stevenyc
Oh yeh, I forgot, Matthew 24 when read in context means nothing more than the fulfillment of Jerusalem's downfall.
steve
-
AuldSoul
Way to redirect people to another thread where they can go to get their questions ignored by you, thirdwitness.
Your Web site does not answer my questions, thirdwitness. When are you going to answer my questions about the UN/DPI and where should I look for the answers?
AuldSoul