The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  AnnOMaly

  Fisherman

  It is noteworthy that in 2Kings 24:17 , it was the King of Babylon that appointed King Zedikiah as King of Judah. Again in 2Kings 25:27,28 It was also the King of Babylon that restored king Jehoiachin to his throne AFTER King Zedekiah. According to Scripture KIng Jehoichin was the last King of Judah and not King ZED. This is significant because Jehoichin's throne should be consindered and Zed was not the last king of Judah according to scripture so it seems that Judah had a king after 607. Any takers?

  The king of Babylon did not restore Jehoiachin to his throne, according to Scripture. He released him from prison, gave him a place of honor at his table and treated him decently. That was all. The only kings ruling Judah after the last king Zedekiah was removed in 587 (607) were those of Babylon and Persia. After the exiles returned, they were ruled over by an appointed governor - never a Judean king.

  And if you want to know what Franz and Jonsson concluded about the Gentile Times, go to www.commentarypress.com and order the books.
• 

  Big Tex

  his ratio of answering questions directly has outweighed the 91 "direct" replies that this thread has generated so far.

  With all due respect saki, while I have seen thirdwitness respond to some posters' questions, I have not seen him provide their somewhat detailed and intelligent questions/problems with his interpretations with real answers. There is a difference between a response and an answer. Leolaia, AlanF, Auld Soul and hillary_step in two other threads went into great detail (and frankly sometimes over my poor IQ) pointing out serious problems with his version of 607 (among other things).

  If Jehovah's Witnesses really teach "the truth" about the Bible, then in my humble view, the truth should be easily taught and defended. A hallmark of Jesus' ministry was the simplicity of his truth and willingness to expose fraud. In all candor, seeing thirdwitness either ignore a well thought out and researched question or dance around in a convuluted manner reminds me more of Bill Clinton (define what "is" is).

  I left this organization 18 years ago for this very reason. My questions were not answered. My questions were ignored, or I watched as elders danced around or even got angry with me for daring to question. I do not believe the God of the Bible would have a problem answering questions, and yet thirdwitness does as he's shown time and time again.

  Chris
• 

  brutusmaximus

  I only have 2 things to say here: what bible is he using and should this make a difference and I thought dubs took an oath at the ass embly not to go onto chat rooms etc?

  As I say just a small thought

  BM
• 

  stevenyc

  thirdwitness said:
  

  That Daniel 4 said that Neb was the head and that was it.

  
  Well lets see what Daniel 4 says: (remember we're looking for the part where Daniel says king Neb was the head).V1 - 8 are king Neb declaring Daniels God great, and letting us know he had a dream that no one could interpret until Daniel enters the story.
  

  8 Finally, Daniel came into my presence and I told him the dream. (He is called Belteshazzar, after the name of my god, and the spirit of the holy gods is in him.)
  9 I said, "Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery is too difficult for you. Here is my dream; interpret it for me. 10 These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. 11 The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth. 12 Its leaves were beautiful, its fruit abundant, and on it was food for all. Under it the beasts of the field found shelter, and the birds of the air lived in its branches; from it every creature was fed.

  
  
  So king Neb describes a high tree that touched the sky with abundant fruit and sheltered animals
  
  

  13 "In the visions I saw while lying in my bed, I looked, and there before me was a messenger,a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 He called in a loud voice: 'Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches. 15 But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground, in the grass of the field.
  The from heaven a message to chop the tree down leaving the stump and roots bound.
  
  " 'Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him live with the animals among the plants of the earth. 16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him. 17 " 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

  Then 'he' would live with the animals with his mind changed to that of an animal. This is so that the living will know who's the boss.

  18 "This is the dream that I, King Nebuchadnezzar, had. Now, Belteshazzar, tell me what it means, for none of the wise men in my kingdom can interpret it for me. But you can, because the spirit of the holy gods is in you."
  Daniel come to the rescue:
  19 Then Daniel (also called Belteshazzar) was greatly perplexed for a time, and his thoughts terrified him. So the king said, "Belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its meaning alarm you."

  Daniel gets a bit scared because he knew what the dream meant, and was now going to have to tell the king.

  Belteshazzar answered, "My lord, if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries! 20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the beasts of the field, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds of the air- 22 you, O king, are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.
  So Daniel comes out with it and tells king Neb that he is the tree. (Note: Daniel does NOT say ANYTHING about king Neb being part of the tree as thirdwitness implies.)
  23 "You, O king, saw a messenger, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump, bound with iron and bronze, in the grass of the field, while its roots remain in the ground. Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven; let him live like the wild animals, until seven times pass by for him.'
  24 "This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes. 26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, O king, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue."

  He then give the FULL interpretation: king Neb will go mad for 7 years, until he acknowledges the Most High.

  28 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 Twelve months later, as the king was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 he said, "Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?"
  31 The words were still on his lips when a voice came from heaven, "This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes."
  33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like cattle. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.
  34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.
  His dominion is an eternal dominion;
  his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
  35 All the peoples of the earth
  are regarded as nothing.
  He does as he pleases
  with the powers of heaven
  and the peoples of the earth.
  No one can hold back his hand
  or say to him: "What have you done?"
  36 At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

  The prophecy is then fulfilled. Twelve months later the haughty king is brought down to earth. After seven years his sanity was restored, and he praised the Most High.

  That's it. There is ABSOLUTLY nothing to suggest that this dream means anything other than what Daniel wrote.
  

  Well if you don't want to search the scriptures of course you want find any answers or any truth.

  You barking up the wrong tree here thirdwitness. You are searching other scriptures and twisting the bible for your own ends, or at least your mommies own ends. Daniel is very specific in his interpretation of this vision. He said it was fulfilled. In other visions that Daniel had, the messenger tells him when the visions are for a future reference. Daniel is very clear on this throughout his book.

  Daniel out-rightly tells us that it is about God's kingdom and whoever he wants he will make rule.

  Actually Daniels interpretation says this punishment is between king Neb and God? V32, "...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes." The messenger in the vision says that king Nebs downfall is V17"..so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men. This is the lesson of king Neb and the seven years of insanity.

  That is the theme of Daniel 4 as I showed in the first post I made.

  Correct. That is what Daniel 4 is all about. The great king Neb is brought down to his knees by God to show him who's boss. V28, "All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar." V33 "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled.."

  And the connections are clear to Ezek 17, 19, and 21.

  Ezekiel 17, 19, and 21 have NOTHING to do with king Nebs madness. Would you like me to post those scriptures verbatim to show how twisted you words are? It may have similar lessons to give. There are many examples in the bible of this lesson. You know the one: "Don't get too high and mighty because its God who gives the power."

  The meaning of Daniel 4 had been twisted and used by many Adventist groups over the last two centuries. Some have admitted their mistakes and have stopped interpreting at, while others have admitted their mistakes and have reinterpreted it.

  Which group do you belong to thirdwitness ?

  steve
• 

  hillary_step

  Chris,

  I remember years ago, in the early 80's, I was removed as an elder for questioning the 'generation' issue. I wrote a detailed analysis of the issue, proving that the WTS could not have the correct understanding of 'geneo' as used in Matthew 24 and that they certainly could not build a '1914 Generation' doctrine from the scriptual usage of this word.

  I sent the thesis to the Branch in the country that I was serving in at the time. Very quickly, a representative was sent to speak with me and I was threatened with disfellowshipping if I spoke to anybody about what I had written. I told the DO, that I had no intention of speaking to others, nor had I any intentions of not speaking to others, a 'Theocratic' way of telling him to bugger off.

  Well, I was removed as an elder for a while. The crime? Lying? Spreading dissent? No, there was general acknowledgement among the committee that I *may* have a point, but I was removed because my motives for doing this research were not 'pure'. It is on the basis of such childish thinking, that people like ThirdWitness is able without conscience to ignore the repeated questions that I and others pose that make him feel uncomfortable.

  Scholar does a similar thing when backed into a corner by such as AlanF - he plays the atheism card. That is, 'how can anyone be expected to understand scriptual issues if they are athiest, their motives are wrong'. This of course ignores the fact that many have become agnostic, or atheist because they do understand the scriptures, rather than the reverse.

  As to the 'generation' issue, well as you know the WTS did eventually see the light and changed the doctrine in the mid 90's, in line with what had been pointed out to them I presume by a number of people. I saw the DO in 1998 and suggested to him the Jehovah's Chariot, which is purported to be represented in Ezekiel by a vehicle that is able to move in any direction and fast speed, is often overtaken by its foot soldiers who have to throw ropes around it and drag it along in the correct direction.

  The moral of the story, from a ThirdWitness standpoint, is that the light still shines if you hide your eyes.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  ozziepost

  BM:

  I thought dubs took an oath at the ass embly not to go onto chat rooms etc?

  You'd have to wonder, eh? Perhaps he's not a dub?

  Maybe just a troll looking to yank your chain.
• 

  hillary_step

  Saki,

  As well as the other 53 people who are still waiting for answers. Its obvious the scales are a bit unbalanced with TW being outnumbered by at least 15 to 1. But this is a completely new thread, with the content apparently being retyped manually... somewhat of a redeeming period... but lots of negative responses.

  I'm not here to argue but rather wanting to simply hear both sides... so I inject my viewpoint, not to stir up anything, but to make aware of the facts.

  1) To his own admission ThirdWitness is working in concert with a 'team' so he may not after all be out numbered either in argument or personnel.

  2) I have invited ThirdWitness to debate me on numerous occasions on the veracity of the Bible as a whole, my point being that if I can prove that the Bible is an unreliable book where science and history is concerned *all* these issues of chronology and interpretation are immediately attended to at one stroke. All these numerous invitations have not even been acknowledged, as have not been acknowledged ONE question that I have ever posed to him, on this thread or any other.

  I'm not here to argue but rather wanting to simply hear both sides... so I inject my viewpoint, not to stir up anything, but to make aware of the facts.

  It seems that you go beyond stating facts, but actually defend ThirdWitness. Let me show you your own words :

  But this is a completely new thread, with the content apparently being retyped manually... somewhat of a redeeming period... but lots of negative responses.

  I have already stated that I have asked questions in THIS thread that remain unanswered, and note that ThirdWitness is not alone in this effort, but is working with a team. If he cannot keep up with his typing, perhaps he should stick to dealing with one thread completely, before he starts another. The negative repsonses that you see might have something to do with him not answering uncomfortable questions, which actually are THE most important ones to attend to. As I have noted in another thread, this display of intellectual dishonesty will not endear him to any posters on this board, excepting yourself of course.

  Saki, you are not proving yourself to be the neutral onlooker that you pretend to be.

  HS
• 

  Sunspot

  Hillary_step said:

  Well, I was removed as an elder for a while. The crime? Lying? Spreading dissent? No, there was general acknowledgement among the committee that I *may* have a point, but I was removed because my motives for doing this research were not 'pure'. It is on the basis of such childish thinking, that people like ThirdWitness is able without conscience to ignore the repeated questions that I and others pose that make him feel uncomfortable.

  This surmised problem of "motive" in calling attention to flaws in WTS theology and doctrine, is right up there with pulling out the "race card" to try and gain support in winning a point.

  On another board that I post on, this tactic is overused and still nonessential when it is stripped away from the actual meat of a discussion. "Motives" are called into question whether the reasoning makes sense or not......trying to detract from what is being said, in this case.....by a nonJW or more importantly....an EXJW!

  As has been brought out, several posters have presented well thought out and good solid discussions disproving what ThirdWit has expressed, but we find that any good and meaningful debate OR discussion on his part, is nonexistant thus far.

  I suppose that for the thousands and thousands of previously dedicated and loyal JWs that have painfully come to the realization that the Watchtower Society is no smarter, no better, or no more spiritually priveleged or "in tune with what God requires"....

  I only feel pity for those who are still trapped in the lie....and what's more....are perpetuating these lies as "truth".
• 

  thirdwitness

  Ozzie, do you think that posting statistics for the last one day proves anything. You restricted and limited my posting. I could not even post at all for a period of time. Then you questioned why I was answering anyone. Do you really deny this? You posted on a thread that you were restricting me and recently I received an email from you which tells me that all my posting priviledges are all restored.

  So tell everyone the truth. Did you restrict and limit my posting priviledges and was there a period of time when I couldn't post anything at all?
• 

  thirdwitness

  Here are the questions I have gathered together. I will be answering them as time permits. Most have really already been answered in my initial post. However, I will reanswer them anyway.

  Auldsoul: Did the prophecy of Daniel 4 say that a ruler of God's Kingdom would come forth at the end of the seven times? No. So, why do you interpret a second fulfillment into the prophecy where there is no indication of one?

  Outside of application to the specific judgment prophecies wherein "a day for a year" is stipulated, the usage is completely unnecessary.

  Are you aware that the word translated "weeks" in Daniel 9 literally means "weeks of years"?

  "Iddan" does not have to mean more than 7 years. It can mean less than 7 years with equal facility. It can mean "measure of time", or "season" and if you were aware of this possibility prior to posting this false statement then your statement was sophistic. Were you aware that "iddan" can be less than a year, thirdwitness? If so, then you already knew your statement that "it must mean more than 7 years" was false, since you already knew of another possibility.

  Q) Where in Daniel chapter 4 does it specifically say that the 7 times applies to God's rulership? (A) It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible, much less in Daniel chapter 4.(Q) Where does the Bible specifically say that the tree dream in Daniel chapter 4 has any other application? (A) Nowhere. It isn't in the Bible, unless you include the Bound Volume "Talmud" of Jehovah's Witnesses as part of the Bible, which most JWs do.(Q) Do the passages in Ezekiel 17, 19, 21 and Revelation 12 and Isaiah 6 specifically comment on the passage from Daniel chapter 4 or specifically connect it to what these other chapters are saying? (A) No.

  Midget: ThirdWitness: Seems to me that the Society is arbritary in how it picks and chooses which times are literal days and which are years. Am I correct in understanding how you responded to Steve and AuldSoul's query about this?

  Jayhawk: How does the day for a year rule apply to the Gentile Times Prophecy? As another person has already said, the day for a year rule applied to only 2 prophecies listed in the Bible where it says that would be how it worked. Where is the day for a year rule in the Gentile Times Prophecy? How are we to know that rule is to be used? How are we to know if it is a figurative prophecy with figurative rules, or is it to be taken literally? Again, where are the text clues for the reader to use decernment?

  And jayhawk says of what I wrote concerning applying a day for a year: I don't understand any of this.

  Jayhawk: Watchtower's crap that they publish? Really? They are the biggest supporters of your Gentile Times Prophecy, are they not? Please explain why you say the Watchtower publishes crap.

  cabasilas: But, does Daniel specifically say there is any other application to the tree dream? ...So, I think you've basically said that if we look at Daniel chapter 4 alone there is no specific application to anything other than what happened to Nebuchadnezzar. How do the "other scriptures" you cited "connect Daniel 4" to the interpretation you are proposing? Do any of them specifically connect Daniel 4? Yes, they use the same metaphor of trees but do they specifically connect Daniel 4? Are you interpreting from the text or reading into the text?

  Fisherman: "In what way would another king be brought high in 537?" Consider 2 Kings 25:27,28 ...Couldn'dt EZ 21:26 apply before 537 on or about 607 finding fulfillent as stated in 2kings verse previously cited....Here is another possible interpretation of Ez 21:26,27 having nothing to do with the Getile times:Ezequiel was speaking with Zed:Put on high even waht was low- King Jehoichin abased in Babylon would be restored to honor.Bring low even the High one- Zedekiah occupying a high office would be degradedruin ruin ruin- impending disasterit will certainly become no one's (literally this also shall be no more) Even the restoration of the crown to Jehoiachin will only be temporary. The ultimate restoration will happen at an unspecified time in the future.....It is noteworthy that in 2Kings 24:17 , it was the King of Babylon that appointed King Zedikiah as King of Judah. Again in 2Kings 25:27,28 It was also the King of Babylon that restored king Jehoiachin to his throne AFTER King Zedekiah. According to Scripture KIng Jehoichin was the last King of Judah and not King ZED. This is significant because Jehoichin's throne should be consindered and Zed was not the last king of Judah according to scripture so it seems that Judah had a king after 607. Any takers?

  ringo5 and hoping4change: Can you at least point to the specific post # that addresses that question, (considering you cannot arrive at any specific dates without using secular sources) since it is directly on topic with this thread?

  ackack: Do JWs not use WW1 as proof of their 1914/607 logic?
  
  hillarystep: I am putting on public record once again, that I have asked ThirdWitness numerous questions, including some on this thread and he has NEVER answered one of them.