by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
10% of 100 people will give you 10 people.
10% of 1000 people will give you 100 people.
Which gives you more people, obviously the second, but the per capita remains the same. As populations grow, obviously if a disaster hit, the concentration of people would cause a large number of casualties. You've proved nothing unless you can show more occurances of the same thing.
I just love it when I see a JW cite "Deadliest [fill in the blank] On Record" as proof of the significance of 1914.
Deadliest earthquakes on record
thirdwitness, please explain what "on record" means as a qualifying phrase. To what term is it opposed and does the incredible increase in precision with regard to record-keeping in the last 100 years have any bearing on the statistics you cited?
Lurkers, please watch closely for an indirect response.
AuldSoul
thirdwitness,
Jesus did not say that there would be an increase in the number of people who died in earthquakes. He said there would be an increase in the number of earthquakes. It hasn't happened. YOU are the one changing what Jesus said to suit doctrine. Even the ATHEISTS in this thread are more honest about what the Bible says than you are.
AuldSoul
Sorry one of my quotations evaporated somehow:
Apostasy.
Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment; it involves teaching false doctrines, supporting or promoting false religion and its holidays or interfaith activities. (Deut. 13:13, 15; Josh.22:22, ftn.; Acts 21:21, ftn.; 2 Cor. 6:14, 15, 17, 18;
2. John 7, 9, 10; Rev. 18:4) … Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.
Frank75
You say this: The reality is that even if the faithful and discreet slave has not yet been appointed over all of the master's belongings (as interpreted by some) he has still been appointed to provide the food because he has proven himself to be faithful and discreet. It is really only a matter of quibbling over a word or phrase and its perceived interpretation. *******The interpretation of 'all the belongings' as given to us by the faithful and discreet slave clearly shows us that they believe that they have "only been appointed over the earthly belongings" of the master because of the increase that their faithfulness has brought. ******* So whether or not the faithful slave has been appointed over all the belongings as of yet as interpreted by someone else really changes nothing from our standpoint. We still are under obligation to find that faithful and discreet slave that has increased the master's belongings and take in the food that is provided if we want to to be sustained. Certainly it would not be worth leaving Jehovah's organization over such a minor point. Especially when considering all the basic truths that we have learned from Jehovah by means of that faithful and discreet slave. The Watchtower Feb 1, 1985 says: Hence, the invisible Master has appointed this dependable "slave" class "over all his belongings" of a spiritual kind. The Watchtower Jan 15, 2001 says: ‘The faithful slave’ has been ‘appointed over all his master’s belongings.’ The Watchtower Dec 1, 1992 says: 'The year 1914 began what the Bible calls “the Lord’s day.” (Revelation 1:10) Momentous events were to take place during that day, including the identifying of “the faithful and discreet slave” and the appointing of that one “over all [the Master’s] belongings.'
Steve,
That was one of the two that I zeroed in on, as well. Plainly, he has directly contradicted the teaching of the very faithful and discreet slave he says he believes. They say they have been appointed over all the master's belongings. He says they have not been. If his body of elders knew what he was teahing he would be announced as having disassociated himself. He is rejecting the claim of authority.
Feeding people is not an expression of authority, it is a service. Being appointed OVER all the master's belongings is authority. He rejected that authority. And also posted it here.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Foolish reasoning. Not what Jesus said. Jesus said people would be living their everyday lives as if nothing was happening. What you are looking for is world troubles so bad that no one can live a normal life. But thats not what Jesus said. All the many things Jesus predicted make up the one sign of his parousia. Even you and your friends saying, "Where is the promised presence of his. Why, all thing are continuing....."
The above comment is disingenuous at best. Thirdwitness knows full well that what Jesus said is not relevant to what JW’s teach. What is relevant to the JW is what the Watchtower says that Jesus said. This is evident in what Jesus said in Luke 21:8 and that when it is brought up to a JW’s they usually want to run and hide from it.
“ He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.”
What does the JW leadership claim if it is not that “I am he” and certainly as the summer assembly theme thrust the JW belief to the fore that “the due time has approached”?
What you are looking for is world troubles so bad that no one can live a normal life.
No, that is what you witnesses are looking for. Those of us who believe in the bible expect that the end will come as a thief. Exactly as Jesus said it would when he was earlier pushed to give a sign. He said there in Matt 12:38:
In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah the prophet.
That sign was Jesus death and resurrection. That is the only sign Jesus gave and he mentioned why. Namely that he considered persons who look for signs to be “wicked and adulterous”. If that is so and it appears to be plainly stated, then why would he go to the trouble to enunciate visible signs to attract such “wicked and adulterous” persons into his so-called “paradise kingdom”?
That is why honest students of the bible take Jesus words in Matt 24 and Luke 21 at face value. The only sign given was his “coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”. In that case it would sadly be too late for the sign seekers.
No advance warning would be given just as it was “in the days of Noah”. This fact always escapes people like JW’s because they simply don’t read the bible contextually. This is shown up time and time again by AlanF’s masterful exposé’s of the erroneous gentile times doctrine as well as the patently dishonest translation techniques employed by their Oracle Fred Franz.
JW’s and others maintain that Noah preached audibly (distributing tracts, brochures and leaflets perhaps) because of what Peter said. I submit that the preaching that Peter noted in 2 Pet 2:5 was simply the testimony of his faith visible through his action of building the vessel. The same testimony given by disciples of Jesus (Matt 5:16) Proof of Peter’s thinking is found in his admonition to wives in 1 Pet 3:1, 2
Such a global "preaching work" would take considerable resources for the people charged with constructing this vessel. Likewise preaching in the sense of JW’s and other modern disciplers would imply that there was hope for the wicked if Noah could warn them enough, perhaps even "studying with them" to come into the
However this is not what God told Noah. The account says:
And I do establish my covenant with you; and you must go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you… ..
Then:
“Go, you and all your household, into the ark, because you are the one I have seen to be righteous before me among this generation
Next he mentions the animals. Nowhere does he mention that “others” would be invited or even permitted into the Ark. They had all been pre-qualified or excluded from the salvation offered to Noah and his immediate family. No doubt there may have been mercy shown to individuals who came forward. However that did not happen at least as far as the account of Noah is concerned.
Mal 3:18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”
Therefore it makes more sense to conclude that this aspect of Noah’s day was what Jesus was referring to rather than the exegetical and theological “organizational” arguments of cults like the JW’s. Namely “the chosen ones” who are in a “covenant” with Christ (see Isa 54:9 then the context) would need to keep their wits about them always to avoid being led astray by “wicked and adulterous” sign seekers who would pop out of the woodwork every time something disastrous happened.
Frank75
Flash (it's always hard to resist singing 'Flash! Ah ahhh' when I see your name) What song is that from? I must have missed it.
An oldie by Queen. Theme song to the 1980 Flash Gordon movie.
This is interesting. Do you mean in the same exclusive sense, i.e. that they alone have been chosen and all other Christian groups have been rejected?
Yes, based on the core teachings of the religions. I'm not judging the RF of any religion as being unworthy in God's eyes, just the religious institutions themselves...which now includes the WTS.
Hang on. So all Christian institutions, now including the WTS, have been rejected, but JWs themselves are approved and you allow for the possibility that the RF of other religious groups are also approved - even though their core doctrines would disqualify them. I find that a teensy bit contradictory. In any case, JWs - according to what you said - can't exclusively be God's people if ones from other groups may be counted as worthy in God's eyes.
Another question. If you think JWs are chosen above all others, what are the criteria by which they have been chosen, and how is that choosing evidenced? (all right, 2 questions LOL)
Jayhaw1: 10% of 100 people will give you 10 people.
10% of 1000 people will give you 100 people.
Which gives you more people, obviously the second, but the per capita remains the same. As populations grow, obviously if a disaster hit, the concentration of people would cause a large number of casualties. You've proved nothing unless you can show more occurances of the same thing.
AlanF: : The Society claims that earthquakes, famine, pestilence and war
suddenly became much worse problems for mankind in 1914. The facts say
otherwise:
I would assume that the destructiveness of a natural disaster, namely earthquakes, is ultimately measured in casualties. Regardless what the measure of a disaster is based on, whether its Per Capita or not, if it kills more people... then wouldn't it be easily classified as being more destructive/worse? On a per capita basis the facts may say otherwise. If since 1914 the percentages/per capita has remained the same, but deaths have risen considerably, then I'd say the problem has worsened.
However, http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/increase_in_earthquakes.php shows that the increase of Earthquakes may not be on the rise, but may appear to be for the fact that they are now able to locate them easier.
Auldsoul: He said there would be an increase in the number of earthquakes.
Where does is say this?
Matthew 24: 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, [ a ] ' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Verse 6 "You will hear..." Verse 7 "There will be famines and earthquakes in various places". So maybe it simply means that you will hear of these things more frequently.
Auldsoul: He said there would be an increase in the number of earthquakes.Where does is say this?
Truthfully, it does not say this anywhere. The other term that is often debated is "Great Earthquakes" which is another supposed sign of "the time of the end". The bible refers to 2 "Great Earthquakes" which occurred after Jesus death. This and the symbolic use of "Great Earthquakes" in Revelation put the lie to the Adventist rhetoric that is often bantered about.
(Luke 21:11) 11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another. . . (Acts 16:26) 26 Suddenly a great earthquake occurred, so that the foundations of the jail were shaken. Moreover, all the doors were instantly opened, and the bonds of all were loosened. (Matthew 28:2) 2 And, notice! a great earthquake had taken place; for Jehovah’s angel had descended from heaven and approached and rolled away the stone, and was sitting on it.. . .
I will ask again from my post above. Why would a person who outspokenly pointed out that persons who where "seeking signs" are "wicked and adulterous" then turn around and give "signs" intended to attract such persons?
Matt 12:38: In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah the prophet.
Likewise, why would Jesus who warned against false prophets and teachers be snookered into using the most outspoken false prophet of our recent age as his exclusive spokesman?
How can people be grouped and classified as "faithful" when it so easy to demonstrate that they have been anything but? This can be done from their own literature. All anyone needs to do is look.
It is like arguing with someone about the holocaust. It would not be hard to debate the validity of survivor claims if it were not for the abundance of Nazi documentation that spells out everything they did in their own hand. Documented, dated, names, numbers the whole shooting match.
Similarly there are lots of religious leaders who have made arrogant claims and silly predictions. Later when they fail or proved false they can deny saying it or claim they were misquoted and taken out of context. However not so with the JW claims as such flip flopping doctrines, specific predictions as well as implied ones are to be found in their own publications. Yet these facts are swept aside and replaced with emotion filled rhetoric to draw a red herring into any discussion of the facts.
Frank75
