by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Thirdwitness, do you plan on answering my questions regarding how does the day for a year rule apply to the gentile times?
I know you have seen my questions, because you quoted me.
I will continue to wait for an answer I can understand. Please don't repost stuff from your site, I am looking for something that can be easily understood.
And while I'm thinking of it heres the answer to a question that someone posed about no one knowing the day or hour.
No one knows the day or hour of Armageddon. That doesn't mean we can't know when Jesus began to rule as the king of God's Kingdom.
I eagerly await your easy to understand answer to my question. I am at work, but I will be home in 2 hours. Maybe by then you will have something for me by then.
Notice in one of my last few posts I discuss the 70 weeks. This is part of the proof that a day for a year should be applied. Also Here is what I had previously written about this:
Should We Apply the Day for a Year Rule?
If a day for a year is not applied then that means that the 7 times lasted from 607 to 600. Did a ruler of God's Kingdom come forth then? Logical reasoning will lead a person to believe that the day for a year rule must apply otherwise the prophecy is meaningless. We have as an example the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel chapter 9. The day for a year rule must apply in Daniel chapter 9 or the prophecy is meaningless and is of no value.
As we have already shown Daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years. Therefore it must mean more than 7 years. Otherwise he would have said 7 years not 7 times. Do you think that Jehovah was trying to trick us by using the terminology of 7 times and then explaining the length of 3.5 times in Revelation only to merely mean that the 7 times that pass over are 7 years and that is all? AT the same time he supplied the rule ' a day for a year ' when Ezekiel laid on his side for so many days (which by the way pointed to the destruction of Jerusalem in 607). He also supplied the prophecy of the 70 weeks which also needs the rule of 'a day for a year' for it to have value. The 70 weeks from 455 brings us to 453.5. Nothing happened. So surely it must be a day for a year.
With that said, is there any other reason to apply the day for a year rule to the dream? For a moment lets reason why God wanted us to know exactly how long 3 1/2 times are. In one place he calls it 42 months, in another place he calls it 1260 days. If it only meant 42 regular months then why be so specific about it. What difference does a few days here or there make? Why not just 3½ years or 42 lunar or solar months? The only time a few days does make a big difference is when you are dealing with a prophecy that has a day for a year rule applied. In this case every day makes a big difference. When you combine this with the fact that every prophecy of Daniel either concludes with Jesus arriving in God's Kingdom or with the arrival of the Messiah who is the King of God's Kingdom, then you have a pretty strong reason to apply the day for a year rule. End of quote.
Let me explain the last paragraph a little bit further. Revelation tells us about 3.5 times. And it tells us that this is 42 months. Now 42 months could be construed as being 1260 days because using 30 day lunar months 42 X 30 = 1260. But if we were calculating 42 months on a solar calendar then we would have more than 1260 days. 3.5 X 365 = 1277.5. Now if we use a day for a year on that figure we would have 1277.5 years. 7 times would then equal 2555 years. But amazingly we did not have to do such figuring. Because Revelation actually comes right out and tells us that the 3.5 times, the 42 months, is equivalent to 1260 days. So there it is. There is no question. 3.5 times does not equal 1277.5 days. It equals 1260 days. Therefore 7 times = 2520 days. It is right there in the Bible for those who want to see it. Applying a day for a year, just like it was intended on the 70 weeks prophecy, there it is 2520 years = the 7 times of Daniel. It is important that Revelation was precise in saying that 3.5 times was 1260 days since 1 day was to equal 1 year in calculating the 7 times thus a few days would have made a big difference in calculating when the rightful ruler would arrive.
I realize that this is not good enough for some. They do not want to dig deep into the Bible. They wanted Daniel to come right out and say, "7 times = 2520 years and God would have no king exercising rulership toward the earth from 607 to 1914." They do not want to have to look at other scriptures such as Revelation, Ezekiel 17, 19, 21, Isaiah 6 and make the obvious connections that were put in their by Jehovah so that we could make the connections. That is just tooooo complicated and difficult. They want it laid in their lap on a silver platter. Well as the Bible says that is not the way it works. If you want the knowledge of God you have to dig thru his word to find it. But it is there.
That doesn't mean we can't know when Jesus began to rule as the king of God's Kingdom.
When Jesus was asked by the apostles "“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom . . . at this time?,” this was his answer: "He said to them: 'It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." (Acts 1:6, 7, New World Translation)
If it didn't "belong" to the apostles 'to know when Jesus would begin to rule as king in God's Kingdom,' why does it "belong" to the Watchtower Society?
The apostles had the holy spirit, sufficient to record parts of the Bible, and they had the prophecies of Jeremiah, Daniel and others. Still, they couldn't figure out when the Kingdom would begin. How come JWs think they can see in those prophecies what even the apostles could not see?
Frank
As I mentioned before bible commentarys including the SDA bible commentary all say the 490 years of Daniel 9 are years because of the context. Daniel is thinking about the captivity of 70 years when the angel appears and declars there will be seven times the 70 years= 490 years. Where is the day for a year principle here? If you can answer Im sure the SDA church could arrange an excellently paid job for you and may put you on their Daniel review committee. The SDA bible commentary specifically says the day year principle is not required to interpret this scripture. The three and a half years was once interpreted by the WT to be 1260 years 538 to 1798 being the dark ages if I remember correctly. Some on here may be able to look up refferences.
When asked about AlanF's background:
AlanF : Yes, no, no and no. I maxed out at Accounts Servant in the 1970s, then wised up and went to college.There's a long bio on me somewhere on this board, but it'll take some doing for you to find it.
I was searching, came across this and read in its entirety: http://www.freeminds.org/women/barbara_anderson.htm , looked to the menu on the left, and found:
http://www.freeminds.org/women/alan_knocking.htm
I guess this is you, and your bio?
I am going to do more reading when I get home, but at this point I am more willing to side with Barry on the seven times thing over the muddied version Thirdwitness offers.
thirdwitness: The question that you should be asking is why didn't Daniel just spell out how long Neb was to be crazy.
Thank you kindly for your pitiful attempt to educate me, but I have had all I can stomach of Jehovah's Witnesses of any stripe telling me what I should and should not ask. You failed to answer my question and instead answered as question of your choosing AGAIN.
Can you answer my question directly? Try again, without altering what I asked.
But in answer to your question there is a reason that is 100% plausible and does not require a second fulfillment of Daniel 4; The precise length of time was entirely unimportant to the narrative lesson being taught. You actually got correct lesson and then you deny the very point of the narrative in the interpretation applied by your second fulfillment. The lesson of the narrative is that Jehovah's rulership is eternal, no matter which human is currently on the top of the pile. But your narrative asserts that Jehovah's rulership is NOT eternal, that it skips a gap of 2,520 years, and that is directly contrary to the BIble.
You didn't answer my question, so I will make you chew your words slowly before swallowing.
thirdwitness: Yes, God's everlasting rulership toward the earth and his choosing of whomever he sees fit to place in the position of rulership is the centralized theme of Daniel 4.
This is the most intelligent remark I have read from you and this sentence stands in direct conflict with every bit of your second interpretation for Daniel 4. If Jehovah stands for Neb, then his rulership is removed for seven times. By whom? Are you suggesting that Jehovah stands for both himself and Neb in the dream? Either way, your second interpretation would require that Jehovah's rulership is NOT everlasting toward the earth, if it were true.
It is not true, however, your second interpretation is false. The Bible itself says so. (1 Timothy 1:17; Revelation 15:3-4) Your false doctrine just fell on its sword. (Hebrews 4:12-13)
AuldSoul
