The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    This is Thirdwitness' first attempt to educate us (me) on the day for a year rule...

    Should We Apply the Day for a Year Rule?


    If a day for a year is not applied then that means that the 7 times lasted from 607 to 600. Did a ruler of God's Kingdom come forth then? Logical reasoning will lead a person to believe that the day for a year rule must apply otherwise the prophecy is meaningless. We have as an example the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel chapter 9. The day for a year rule must apply in Daniel chapter 9 or the prophecy is meaningless and is of no value.

    As we have already shown Daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years. Therefore it must mean more than 7 years. Otherwise he would have said 7 years not 7 times. Do you think that Jehovah was trying to trick us by using the terminology of 7 times and then explaining the length of 3.5 times in Revelation only to merely mean that the 7 times that pass over are 7 years and that is all? AT the same time he supplied the rule ' a day for a year ' when Ezekiel laid on his side for so many days (which by the way pointed to the destruction of Jerusalem in 607). He also supplied the prophecy of the 70 weeks which also needs the rule of 'a day for a year' for it to have value. The 70 weeks from 455 brings us to 453.5. Nothing happened. So surely it must be a day for a year.

    With that said, is there any other reason to apply the day for a year rule to the dream? For a moment lets reason why God wanted us to know exactly how long 3 1/2 times are. In one place he calls it 42 months, in another place he calls it 1260 days. If it only meant 42 regular months then why be so specific about it. What difference does a few days here or there make? Why not just 3½ years or 42 lunar or solar months? The only time a few days does make a big difference is when you are dealing with a prophecy that has a day for a year rule applied. In this case every day makes a big difference. When you combine this with the fact that every prophecy of Daniel either concludes with Jesus arriving in God's Kingdom or with the arrival of the Messiah who is the King of God's Kingdom, then you have a pretty strong reason to apply the day for a year rule.

    And this is the second attempt...

    And finally we have the day for a year questions. Then I will start on the next batch of questions that have not been answered.

    Notice in one of my last few posts I discuss the 70 weeks. This is part of the proof that a day for a year should be applied. Also Here is what I had previously written about this:

    Should We Apply the Day for a Year Rule?

    If a day for a year is not applied then that means that the 7 times lasted from 607 to 600. Did a ruler of God's Kingdom come forth then? Logical reasoning will lead a person to believe that the day for a year rule must apply otherwise the prophecy is meaningless. We have as an example the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel chapter 9. The day for a year rule must apply in Daniel chapter 9 or the prophecy is meaningless and is of no value.

    As we have already shown Daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years. Therefore it must mean more than 7 years. Otherwise he would have said 7 years not 7 times. Do you think that Jehovah was trying to trick us by using the terminology of 7 times and then explaining the length of 3.5 times in Revelation only to merely mean that the 7 times that pass over are 7 years and that is all? AT the same time he supplied the rule ' a day for a year ' when Ezekiel laid on his side for so many days (which by the way pointed to the destruction of Jerusalem in 607). He also supplied the prophecy of the 70 weeks which also needs the rule of 'a day for a year' for it to have value. The 70 weeks from 455 brings us to 453.5. Nothing happened. So surely it must be a day for a year.

    With that said, is there any other reason to apply the day for a year rule to the dream? For a moment lets reason why God wanted us to know exactly how long 3 1/2 times are. In one place he calls it 42 months, in another place he calls it 1260 days. If it only meant 42 regular months then why be so specific about it. What difference does a few days here or there make? Why not just 3½ years or 42 lunar or solar months? The only time a few days does make a big difference is when you are dealing with a prophecy that has a day for a year rule applied. In this case every day makes a big difference. When you combine this with the fact that every prophecy of Daniel either concludes with Jesus arriving in God's Kingdom or with the arrival of the Messiah who is the King of God's Kingdom, then you have a pretty strong reason to apply the day for a year rule. End of quote.

    Let me explain the last paragraph a little bit further. Revelation tells us about 3.5 times. And it tells us that this is 42 months. Now 42 months could be construed as being 1260 days because using 30 day lunar months 42 X 30 = 1260. But if we were calculating 42 months on a solar calendar then we would have more than 1260 days. 3.5 X 365 = 1277.5. Now if we use a day for a year on that figure we would have 1277.5 years. 7 times would then equal 2555 years. But amazingly we did not have to do such figuring. Because Revelation actually comes right out and tells us that the 3.5 times, the 42 months, is equivalent to 1260 days. So there it is. There is no question. 3.5 times does not equal 1277.5 days. It equals 1260 days. Therefore 7 times = 2520 days. It is right there in the Bible for those who want to see it. Applying a day for a year, just like it was intended on the 70 weeks prophecy, there it is 2520 years = the 7 times of Daniel. It is important that Revelation was precise in saying that 3.5 times was 1260 days since 1 day was to equal 1 year in calculating the 7 times thus a few days would have made a big difference in calculating when the rightful ruler would arrive.

    I realize that this is not good enough for some. They do not want to dig deep into the Bible. They wanted Daniel to come right out and say, "7 times = 2520 years and God would have no king exercising rulership toward the earth from 607 to 1914." They do not want to have to look at other scriptures such as Revelation, Ezekiel 17, 19, 21, Isaiah 6 and make the obvious connections that were put in their by Jehovah so that we could make the connections. That is just tooooo complicated and difficult. They want it laid in their lap on a silver platter. Well as the Bible says that is not the way it works. If you want the knowledge of God you have to dig thru his word to find it. But it is there.

    Forgive me if I am pointing out the obvious, but isn't this the same thing, just repeated differently. Maybe I should speak slowly in order to be understood. Where... does... it... say... to... use... the... day... for... a... year... rule? Wasn't this just a prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar? How did this become a prophecy about the Mesiah?

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Auldsoul: But your narrative asserts that Jehovah's rulership is NOT eternal, that it skips a gap of 2,520 years, and that is directly contrary to the BIble.

    Are you suggesting that Jehovah stands for both himself and Neb in the dream? Either way, your second interpretation would require that Jehovah's rulership is NOT everlasting toward the earth, if it were true.

    You are wrong on both assertions. Jehovah's rulership of course never ends. But it was for 7 times that Jehovah would not have a king exercising his rulership on the earth in sitting on God's throne as His representative. I have never said that Neb stood for Jehovah. The tree pictures Neb and in the greater fulfillment pictures Jehovah's rulership toward the earth as expressed thru his chosen representatives. The tree does not picture Jehovah himself or his everlasting rulership as sovereign of the universe. Nor does Neb picture Jehovah.

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Where... does... it... say... to... use... the... day... for... a... year... rule?

    I will ask you the same thing about the 70 weeks. You must use logic and reason. You must use the example of the 70 weeks. I have answered this already in detail. Are you one who wants it on a silver platter?

    Wasn't this just a prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar?

    No, this I clearly showed to over and over again. Must I repeat Ezek 17, 19, 21 , Isa 6 etc and even what is said in Daniel 4. There connection is there if you want to look at it without preconceived ideas against JWs.

    How did this become a prophecy about the Mesiah?

    All of Daniel's prophecies are about the Messiah. Do you think that it just so happens that all oh except the tree dream is about the Messiah? The theme of Daniel 4 as well as the whole book of Daniel tells us just what the whole account is about. The bigger picture. The kingdom of God. The chosen ruler. The lowliest one of mankind.

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1
    The tree pictures Neb and in the greater fulfillment pictures Jehovah's rulership toward the earth as expressed thru his chosen representatives. The tree does not picture Jehovah himself or his everlasting rulership as sovereign of the universe. Nor does Neb picture Jehovah.

    Again, that is where you lose me. Why does there always have to be an additional fulfillment for every prophecy? How about a prophecy that began and ended while the Bible book was penned?

    Does the prophecy of Isreal wondering in the wilderness for 40 years (Day for a Year Prophecy) have an additional fulfillment? No. So why should the Nebuchadnezzar one be any different?

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    Does the Book of Daniel say in any part of it that its prophecies are written for the Mesiah? I am asking, because I don't know.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    saki2fifty,

    Please pay close attention to this post.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

    thirdwitness,

    thirdwitness: Yes, God's everlasting rulership toward the earth and his choosing of whomever he sees fit to place in the position of rulership is the centralized theme of Daniel 4.
    thirdwitness: The tree pictures Neb and in the greater fulfillment pictures Jehovah's rulership toward the earth as expressed thru his chosen representatives.

    Do you really fail to see any logical failure in assertion that these two posts are accurate? Is it Jehovah's chosen representatives that are cut down and the stump banded, or is it rulership toward the earth, or both, or neither? Make up your mind! Oh wait, you can't. Here, let me let your true God make up your mind for you:

    Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! (1999) p. 94 par. 24
    "But remember, the tree stands for rulership and sovereignty far grander than that of Babylon’s king. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, 'the King of the heavens,' especially with respect to the earth."

    So if someone sides with thirdwitness in this case, they are automatically siding against the Watchtower Society. What to do, what to do? Oh, whatever shall someone do who cannot think independently without risking the wrath of God Almighty (or worse, his earthly agents)?

    Let me ask you directly, a yes or no question...do you agree with the statement in the Daniel's Prophecy book? If so, then you are diagreeing with what you just wrote and converting your doctrine to that of the WTS within minutes. If not, then you do not support their doctrine either and therefore you are also an apostate.

    Think it over and get back to me once your headache goes away...oh, nevermind. Just answer it as soon as you read it. I'm not going anywhere.

  • cabasilas
    cabasilas
    Wasn't this just a prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar?

    No, this I clearly showed to over and over again. Must I repeat Ezek 17, 19, 21 , Isa 6 etc and even what is said in Daniel 4. There connection is there if you want to look at it without preconceived ideas against JWs.

    All you have showed us is that the Old Testament uses "tree" as a metaphor for rulers. There is NOTHING in the other Scriptures you've cited that explicitly says the tree dream of Daniel 4 had any other application.

    Question for thirdwitness: Has the Watchtower Society ever used these other verses to as proof like you are doing? They use words like "it would be fitting" or "it is reasonable," etc. Can you cite where the Society uses these verses?

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

  • moomanchu
    moomanchu
    No one knows the day or hour of Armageddon. That doesn't mean we can't know when Jesus began to rule as the king of God's Kingdom.

    third,

    Are you telling me that when Jesus was on earth,

    He knew that he would be enthroned in heaven Oct. 1914?

    Since he Knew this, why did he make it seem like he didn't know?

    *** w98 6/1 p. 5 Wait Patiently ***

    THE shepherd who repeatedly cried "Wolf!" when there was no wolf found that his subsequent cry for help went unheeded. Similarly today, many disregard the imminence of Jehovah’s day because they have heard countless warnings that have proved to be false alarms. The very fact that so many fail to discern which warning is genuine and then heed it plays into the hands of God’s great enemy, Satan, that false "angel of light."-2 Corinthians 11:14.

    1914, 1915, 1920, 1925, 1940's, 1975,

    warnings from the WTS that proved to be false.

    Who is the WTS really helping? Think about it.

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