The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Jim_TX

  One thing that kinda bugs me... and did when I was a JW...
  Waaaaaay back when... when they wrote this stuff that became the 'bible' (I.E. the book of Daniel, etc.), how long was a day? 24 hours, right?
  How long was a year? Hmmm... let me think. 360 Days, right? (Think 'Jewish')
  Sooooo... if we are to do this 2520 'years' thing, wouldn't it be years that are 360 days for each each year? *puzzled look*
  I don't want to rile up those who are working dilligently on arguing the 607 vs 5xx year... I am just sitting here thinking that one would need to start by multiplying the 'days' (2520) by 360 (Jewish 'years') and then divide by 365.25 - to arrive at the approximate... oh, never mind. It's all bunk anyway.
  Regards,
  
  Jim TX
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  thirdwitness

  Auldsoul said: thirdwitness,

  Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! (1999) p. 94 par. 24
  
  "But remember, the tree stands for rulership and sovereignty far grander than that of Babylon’s king. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, 'the King of the heavens,' especially with respect to the earth."

  Do you agree with the statement in the Daniel's Prophecy book? I ask because this is what you wrote:

  thirdwitness: The tree does not picture Jehovah himself or his everlasting rulership as sovereign of the universe.

  Please answer the question. It is a yes or no question.

  I say: Don't you just hate it when people use the WT publication in a attempt to prove their points. If I can start quoting WT publications and you are willing to accept them as truth then I am afraid you will lose all of your arguments hands down. Oh but you enemies of 607 already are losing your arguments hands down. So that you are reduced to silly cartoons and name calling and of course the ususal statement of, 'You refuse to answer my questions' when the reality is I have went thru and answered every question pertaining to this subject.

  Now to answer this question. I see no contradiction. You highlighted the part where the WTS said 'especally toward the earth'. Here is what the WT publication said in detail: It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, "the King of the heavens," especially with respect to the earth. Before Jerusalem’s destruction by the Babylonians, the kingdom centered in that city with David and his heirs sitting on "Jehovah’s throne" represented God’s sovereignty with reference to the earth. (1 Chronicles 29:23) God himself had such sovereignty chopped down and banded in 607 B.C.E. when he used Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem. Exercise of divine sovereignty toward the earth by a kingdom in the line of David was restrained for seven times. How long were these seven times? When did they begin, and what marked their end?

  I said:thirdwitness: Yes, God's everlasting rulership toward the earth and his choosing of whomever he sees fit to place in the position of rulership is the centralized theme of Daniel 4.
  and I said: The tree pictures Neb and in the greater fulfillment pictures Jehovah's rulership toward the earth as expressed thru his chosen representatives.

  So do I agree with the statement in the Daniel book? Yes

  And I think you are splitting hairs. Does this somehow disprove that the 7 times were 2520 years?
• 

  stevenyc

  thirdwitness:
  :I say: Don't you just hate it when people use the WT publication in a attempt to prove their points. If I can start quoting WT publications and you are willing to accept them as truth then I am afraid you will lose all of your arguments hands down.
  
  Well, the title of your thread says: "but this Time By Using the Bible", unless of course if you take the govering body's publications as the bible.
  
  :Oh but you enemies of 607 already are losing your arguments hands down.
  
  HA!
  
  :So that you are reduced to silly cartoons and name calling and of course the ususal statement of, 'You refuse to answer my questions' when the reality is I have went thru and answered every question pertaining to this subject.
  
  Well, you still haven't responded to mine. And please note, as a respectful reminder, using only the bible.
  
  steve
• 

  ackack

  Thirdwitness, is there any scriptural support for the idea that Satan came by a few months earlier to stir up trouble?

  ackack
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  learntoswim

  How long was a year? Hmmm... let me think. 360 Days, right? (Think 'Jewish')
  
  
  Sooooo... if we are to do this 2520 'years' thing, wouldn't it be years that are 360 days for each each year? *puzzled look*
  
  
  I don't want to rile up those who are working dilligently on arguing the 607 vs 5xx year... I am just sitting here thinking that one would need to start by multiplying the 'days' (2520) by 360 (Jewish 'years') and then divide by 365.25 - to arrive at the approximate... oh, never mind. It's all bunk anyway.

  
  Jim, I think the 2520 years are reffering to "actual" years, rather than jewish or modern years.

  For example, we have 365 days even tho an "actual" real year is 365.25 so we have an extra day in the year every 4 years to keep up with real time, similarly the Jewish years of 360 days often had longer years inserted, to keep up with real years. If you see what i mean!

  So over many years, they jewish years and our years would average out to the same. Have i got that right, any chronologers out there?
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  DannyHaszard
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  DannyHaszard
• 

  AuldSoul

  thirdwitness,

  If a "universal sovereign" is "sovereign except for [fill in the blank]" then the reason is immaterial to the indisputable fact that the sovereignty isn't universal. If there is any period of time during which sovereignty is not universal then the "universal sovereignty" is also not eternal. If you can't grasp that simple tidbit of pure logic you are truly a lost cause. I am hopeful that others reading are not so far gone.

  In other words, your doctrine regarding the secondary application of the tree dream eliminates the possibility that Jehovah is the eternal universal sovereign. Your own words shorten the hand of God. Choke on it.

  AuldSoul
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  thirdwitness

  Repy to Steve. All you have said has been answered. The very first post I made on this thread when I began it answers everything you said. But I will indulge you again. Steve's words in italics.

  Once again we can see how a Jehovahs Witness will side with what he reads in the Governing Body's literature over what he reads in the bible. We are not talking about the vision of the statue, We are talking about the vision of the tree. In the vision of the statue Daniel specifically tells us which part of the statue is king Neb, and when the events are to occur, 2:45: "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."

  What you wrote here has no bearing on the tree dream. The Daniel 4 prophecy is also in the future. Even the fulfillment upon Neb.
  
  
  In the vision of the tree, Daniel specificlly tells what the tree represents,
  22 you, O king, are that tree!..",24 "This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven..."

  And of course Neb was the tree in the initial fulfillment. But the Bible shows that the meaning went a lot deeper than Neb. Just as every prophecy in Daniel was about God's Kingdom and the Messiah, so is this one.

  From the very outset of Daniel chapter 4 the theme is set. In verse 3 we read of Jehovah, "How grand his signs are, and how mighty his wonders are! His kingdom is a kingdom to time indefinite, and his rulership is for generation after generation." Continuing the theme the Bible explains the reason for the dream in simple terms at Dan 4:17, "to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.” God's everlasting rulership toward the earth and his choosing of whomever he sees fit to place in the position of rulership is the centralized theme of Daniel 4.
  
  As has been said before, the Bible interprets itself and so we do not have to guess about the meaning of Daniel chapter 4 at all. Incredibly, similar words of Daniel 4:17 are used concerning the kingship of Zedekiah. Ezekiel 21:25-27 reads concerning Zedekiah: "As for you, O deadly wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, whose day has come in the time of the error of the end, this is what the Lord Jehovah has said, Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no ones until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him."
  But there is even more evidence in Ezekiel 21 for connecting the kings of Judah including the last king Zedekiah with the tree in Neb's dream. In reading the entire chapter of Ezekiel 21 did you notice that Jehovah has a sword that he will unsheath upon Judah because of their rebelliousness. It is concerning that sword that the question is asked in verse 10, “Is it (the executional sword) rejecting the scepter (rulership) of my own son (Israel), as [it does] every tree?" 12 “‘Cry out and howl, O son of man, for it itself has come to be against my people; it (Jehovah's sword) is against all the chieftains of Israel." Amazing! Exactly paralleling Neb's tree dream, Jehovah's sword will even cut down the tree or scepter or rulership of Israel.
  
  The cutting down of the tree or rulership of Israel is of great significance because those kings of Israel represented Jehovah's rulership in the earth.
  1 Chronicles 29:23 tells us, "And Sol´o·mon began to sit upon Jehovah’s throne as king in place of David his father" From this we can see that the kings of Israel did indeed represent Jehovah's rulership on earth.
  
  So ask yourself this: Out of 'every tree' or scepter or rulership that Jehovah's sword would cut down by means of Babylon which tree would be unbanded and restored in the future, receiving kingship from Jehovah himself as he saw fit? Which one would provide the 'lowliest' twig that would shoot forth and become a majestic cedar in Jehovah's Holy Mountain put on high like no other? It could only be the tree picturing Jehovah's rulership as represented by the kings of Judah who were said to 'sit upon Jehovah's throne'. It could only be that Judean tree which for 7 times would remain banded but thereafter would bring forth God's chosen ruler of all the earth.
  
  This tree being cut down by Jehovah's sword is the same tree cut down by the watcher. And the ending is the same. The low one is put on high.
  
  
  And Daniel tells us for how long
  25".. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes.

  No argument here. And fortunately in Revelation we are told exactly to a tee just how long 7 times are. I wonder why? Hmmmm. The bible really does interpret itself, doesn't it?
  
  who's kingdom it refers to and the reason why
  26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules.

  Of course, in the initial minor fulfillment. But even in the initial fulfillment Neb had to acknowledge that Jehovah's kingdom is to time indefinite (Neb's kingdom was not forever) and he gives it to whoever he wants. And who is it that Jehovah wanted to give His everlasting kingdom to? Was it Neb? Of course it wasn't. It was Jesus Christ.
  
  
  When it was fullfilled
  8 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 33 "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled..."

  Yes, IN the initial fulfillment. In examining this account and the accounts in Ezek 17, 19, 21, Isa 6, Rev 12, the other prophecies in Daniel and many other scriptures, we can easily see that there was a bigger picture that you are refusing to see. Funny how all the prophecies of Daniel pointed to God's Kingdom ruling in the final part of the days or pointed to the Messiah's earthly coming but oh not Daniel 4. Its just some prophecy about Neb going mad for 7 times and thats it. To believe that you would have to be wearing blinders.

  The vision of the tree in Daniel 4 is a simple demonstration of how Jehovahs Witnesses change what is written in the bible. Daniel says one thing, the Governing Body says something else.
  Who should the Jehovahs Witness side with???

  I chose to side with the evidence clearly found in God's word which JWs present. I believe that Jehovah provide all these other scriptures to show us just what the tree dream meant. You want it on a silver platter as I said earlier but thats not the way it happens. You have to dig and search the Bible. In doing so it is crystal clear just what the tree dream meant in the greater fulfillment. Your failure to acknowledge that does not change it. Your ignoring of all the other scriptures connecting the tree to God's rulership and thus explaining the tree dream for us does not change anything.
• 

  hillary_step

  Thirdwitness,

  You want it on a silver platter as I said earlier but thats not the way it happens. You have to dig and search the Bible.

  Why?

  HS