The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  fjtoth

  How many consult the Insight book when they want to know about a certain person in the Bible? Raise your hand. Probably all of you. Why?

  This question indicates great ignorance concerning how the "Insight" volumes were compiled. I was there. There would be no "Insight" volumes if there had not been the book "Aid to Bible Understanding." That book in turn was put together from informtion obtained from hundreds of sources outside the Watchtower Society. The Watchtower Society raided Christendom's pantry and then gave credit to itself for cooking up a delicious meal of spiritual food.

  I served 40 years at Bethel and often had access to the libraries of those who work in the Writing Department. The vast majority of publications in those libraries were not produced by the Watchtower Society but by members of Christendom's churches. The Watchtower condemns Christendom's churches but robs constantly from Christendom's sources without giving credit where credit is due.

  Frank
• 

  SWALKER

  There was a war going on in heaven and one going on down on the earth. I do not know exactly how long the war in heaven lasted and the exact date that Satan was finally cast out. I don't know exactly what was going thru Satan's mind and if he anticipated that Jesus was about to toss him out so he started something on earth. All we know is the Gentile times came to an end in October, 1914 and Jesus as the newly empowered king of God's kingdom began to cast him out at that time. Ever since then the world has steadily gotten worse. Woe for the earth. Your argument is really pointless.

  
  

  
  You're right when you say you don't know...did you see this happen? It's one thing to say "I believe this happened", but to pronounce it as fact when you have no basis for fact is unfathomable to me.

  To think that J & J looked around at this time and saw the Bible Students and picked them as having the "truth" when we all know that almost all their teachings have been changed is to say that God is an idiot! They knew what planet God lived on, were traipsing to the pyramids to get measurements, were using the cross/crown symbol (which they later said was idolatrous), celebrating Christmas (which they later said was wrong)...etc., and for anyone to contend that THEY were the "chosen ones" must be like a slap in the face to God. Have you even read the publications of that time period? It's like reading comic books except they want you to believe it's true! (My great-grandfather was a Bible Student and we had all the old literature)

  Revelation is written is signs and symbols...why do you then use actual events to perpetuate your ideas? If the 3 1/2 years are symbolic, so is the war, so is the 144,000 (not literal number), so is the casting out of Satan to earth....there certainly is no reason to believe that Jesus started reigning as King in 1914.

  If that's the case, he's got some serious organization/power issues!!! The problem is YOU DON'T KNOW any of this for FACT and neither does the WTS. You have a belief system as do many others...we'll just wait and see how it all plays out...I think you're going to be in for a big surprise.

  Swalker (4th generation that sadly kept the insanity going)
• 

  DannyHaszard

  fjtoth-this thread has the best graphics i have ever seen all saved to my HDD
• 

  Hellrider

  ackack, your argument really doesn't matter. There was a war going on in heaven and one going on down on the earth. I do not know exactly how long the war in heaven lasted and the exact date that Satan was finally cast out. I don't know exactly what was going thru Satan's mind and if he anticipated that Jesus was about to toss him out so he started something on earth. All we know is the Gentile times came to an end in October, 1914 and Jesus as the newly empowered king of God's kingdom began to cast him out at that time. Ever since then the world has steadily gotten worse. Woe for the earth. Your argument is really pointless.

  Mmmm, so let me get this straight: First, the disobedient angels rebelled in the days of Noah. They went down to the earth to have hot, steaming demon-sex with the women on earth. What happened after that? Were they let back into heaven (such as they would have to be, for the WTS-theory about 1914 to be correct), or were they incarcarated in Tartarus? According to the Bible, the latter is correct. During his three days of death, Jesus went to visit them in the underworld, according to the Bible. Obviously, the disobedient angels were not let back into heaven (still, the WTS insists that they were). Jesus was tempted on earth by Satan, being offered the kingdoms of the whole world, if he would bow down and worship him. Jesus refused. Was Satan still in heaven? Clearly not. He had allready been condemned after the uprising against God in the days of Noah, and kicked out. The war in heaven happens long, long before Jesus comes to earth! This is clear in the Bible. But still, what does the WTS say? They say that Satan was allowed to hang around in heaven, even after the rebellion in the days of Noah, even after he tempted Jesus in the desert, etc. Not only is this completely inlogical, but there is also absolutely nothing in the Bible that indicates that Satan was allowed to do this. Quite the opposite. The disobedient angels are in Tartarus (hell), not in heaven, and this is where Jesus goes to visit them. Not in heaven.
• 

  stevenyc

  steve: 24 "...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes"Daniel says "the kingdoms of men" NOT "ruler of HIS kingdom".Stop twisting scripture!
  
  This looks like a You say tomato and I..... The ruler of His (God's) Kingdom is certainly the ruler over the 'kingdoms of men', all of the kingdoms of men since God's kingdom will crush the rest as Dan 2:44 says.

  Once again we can see how a Jehovahs Witness will side with what he reads in the Governing Body's literature over what he reads in the bible. We are not talking about the vision of the statue, We are talking about the vision of the tree. In the vision of the statue Daniel specifically tells us which part of the statue is king Neb, and when the events are to occur, 2:45: "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."
  
  In the vision of the tree, Daniel specificlly tells what the tree represents,
  
  22 you, O king, are that tree!..",24 "This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven..."
  
  And Daniel tells us for how long
  
  25".. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes.
  
  who's kingdom it refers to and the reason why
  
  26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules.
  
  When it was fullfilled
  
  28 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 33 "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled..."

  The vision of the tree in Daniel 4 is a simple demonstration of how Jehovahs Witnesses change what is written in the bible. Daniel says one thing, the Governing Body says something else.
  
  Who should the Jehovahs Witness side with???

  steve
• 

  fjtoth

  Thirdwitness wrote:

  All we know is the Gentile times came to an end in October, 1914 and Jesus as the newly empowered king of God's kingdom began to cast him out at that time. Ever since then the world has steadily gotten worse. Woe for the earth. Your argument is really pointless.

  How uninformed JWs are! In the generation BEFORE 1914 --

  • Racial prejudice fostered segregation, separate drinking fountains and lynch mobs.
  • Wife-beating was a commonly accepted practice. Child abuse and spousal abuse went mostly unreported, unnoticed, and unpunished.
  • Most people were compelled to work from childhood to adulthood, dawn till dusk, just to earn enough money to continue living.
  • Many people were treated as little more than "wage-slaves," being abused by factory owners during the industrial revolution, or by farmer land barons, in which case, the system itself was guilty of perpetrating countless "criminal" actions on vast numbers of people, "stealing" their lives and labor, returning "next to nothing" in exchange. From today's perspective, such a situation equals "crime" on a tremendous and pitiless scale.
  • Women and people of color were barred from various professions.
  • Women and people of color were paid far less than their due in any work situation. Women and children worked in sweatshops and mills 12 hours and more a day with only one day off per week for nickels and dimes, without health insurance, unemployment compensation, safety in the workplace, and with a status a notch above slavery. Children labored in factories, mines, and fields.
  • Less than a generation before 1914, genocide was practiced on Indian tribes.
  • Less than a generation before 1914, the American Civil War set "brother against brother" in one of the bloodiest periods of human history.
  • The Wild West flaunted its lack of law and order.
  • Even up to the turn of the century New York and other big cities had annual increases in crime that exceeded today's.
  • Very, very few people knew what a bathtub, telephone or automobile are.
  • There were very few paved roads.
  • Poor families could not afford an education for their children.
  • The child mortality rate was exceedingly high.
  • The average lifespan was between thirty to forty years shorter than today.
  • There were very few hospitals. Pneumonia, tuberculosis, polio, diarrhea were among the leading causes of death.
  • Medicines often did more harm than good. Heroin was sold over the counter as a sedative for coughs, and cocaine was sold as a toothache remedy for children.
  • Amputations and other operations were performed without effective pain-killers.
  • Etc., etc.

  JWs ought to pay attention to Ecclesiastes 7:10: "Do not say: 'Why has it happened that the former days proved to be better than these?' for it is not due to wisdom that you have asked about this."

  If JWs are right and the Devil is responsible for the way things now are, our vastly improved way of life since 1914 indicates that he can't be so bad, after all!

  Frank
• 

  Hellrider

  Stevenyc and fjtoth has got it right: Stevenyc is now repeating a point he (and others) has made several times during the thread (which of course Thirdwitnoid has refused to answer). This is exactly what Thirdwitnoid does, without ever being willing to argue points that are made against his "argument". Just repeat, repeat, repeat, and hope that this brainwashing is succesful, the exact same tactic that is used in the WTS-publications. This works on Jehovahs Witnesses, so maybe repeating, repeating, repeating the arguments against their propaganda will also work (as counter-propaganda). It is sad that this is what it takes to deprogram someone. I personally prefer use of the brain, rational thought, rational arguments, etc, but obviously, this does not work on people without a brain. Fjtoth has understood this. Thruout the thread he has posted simple (and funny, lol) points with his cartoons. Great stuff. A simple approach to explain simple mind (not so) simple things. To actually present thoughtful posts with tons of evidence against this witnoid-dork is to cast the pearls for swine.
• 

  fjtoth

  Thirdwitness wrote:

  fjthoth: If it didn't "belong" to the apostles 'to know when Jesus would begin to rule as king in God's Kingdom,' why does it "belong" to the Watchtower Society?

  Because Daniel 12:4 tells us “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”

  JWs preach that "the time of the end" did not begin until 1914. So you still haven't answered my question. Jesus said it was none of the business of the apostles to know in advance when the Kingdom would be established, and you seem to be saying it was the business of C. T. Russell. Are you saying "the time of the end" began BEFORE 1914? Where in the Scriptures do you find that C. T. Russell had greater authorization from God than the apostles had? (Acts 1:6) Frank
• 

  AuldSoul

  thirdwitness,

  Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! (1999) p. 94 par. 24
  "But remember, the tree stands for rulership and sovereignty far grander than that of Babylon’s king. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, 'the King of the heavens,' especially with respect to the earth."

  Do you agree with the statement in the Daniel's Prophecy book? I ask because this is what you wrote:

  thirdwitness: The tree does not picture Jehovah himself or his everlasting rulership as sovereign of the universe.

  Please answer the question. It is a yes or no question. Just because the WTS made a statement that completely contradicts your own is no need to hold back from answering the question. I can even phrase the same question a different way, if you prefer: Do you agree that the universal sovereignty of Jehovah was chopped down and banded for 2,520 years? Because that is the current doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding the 2,520 years.

  You contradict yourself, you contradict the WTS, yet you play it off as though your reasoning remains valid. You are a sophist.

  AuldSoul
• 

  nicolaou

  Oh brother!

  See, threads like this are what get us atheists laughing silently behind our monitors. Do you guys have any idea just how . . . . . .

  . . . . . oh never mind.