The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  hillary_step

  ThirdWitness,

  I think you have lost it. Your posts are becoming increasingly illogical and erratic. Take a rest, no-one will think any the worse if you take time to recharge the batteries.

  HS
• 

  jayhawk1

  OUTLAW, I just have one word for you... BRILLIANT! Let's do it!

  And to Thirdwitness, man getting you to answer anything is like pulling teeth... no wait! That's Alan's job... sorry. Thanks for the scriptures, you've givin me something to work with.
• 

  fjtoth

  HS,

  ThirdWitness, . . . Your posts are becoming increasingly illogical and erratic.

  I think most of us can say "Amen!" to that.

  ThirdW,

  But let me remind you of Vine's credentials:
  W.E. Vine, M.A., was known in his day (1873-1949) as a classical scholar, a skilled expositor, and an acute theologian.

  You forgot to mention he was a notable Trinitarian. Do you accept what he said about that too? Hmm?

  Frank
• 

  hillary_step

  Frank,

  You forgot to mention he was a notable Trinitarian. Do you accept what he said about that too? Hmm?

  lol....Yes, and also forgets to mention that the WTS sticks to its view of parousia in Matthew 24:27, whereas Vine is sensible enough to at least realize the impossibility of playing too much with Biblical context.

  HS
• 

  garybuss

  William Edwy Vine (1873-1949), vocal OPPOSER of Jehovah's Witnesses, called their teachings of conditional salvation, the denials of the Deity of Christ, and the Trinity heresies. [Vine was appealed to by the Watchtower 52 times in their encyclopedic Insight on the Scriptures alone.] Greek scholar, educator, editor, pastor and author, educated at University College of Wales; BA & MA in "Ancient Classics" from University of London, pastor at Manvers Hall Church in Bath for 40 years. Celebrated Christmas, believed in Hell and that Christ is God, that He died on a CROSS, it is proper to address Him in prayer, and that all believers partake in the Lord's Supper.
  
  Vine denied the concept of an early Christian "organization," and a "selective" resurrection. He wrote two volumes on the "End Times" and the parousia. Vine taught that parousia should not be translated at all and that it (parousia) will start with the rapture of the Church, (when believers meet Christ in the air) and it will end with the manifestation of Christ in glory. (Publisher's Forward of Vine's Expository, 1981 ed. and W.E. Vine, His Life and Ministry, Oliphants LTD, London, 1951)
• 

  Death to the Pixies

  You forgot to mention he was a notable Trinitarian. Do you accept what he said about that too? Hmm?

  That is not the point, 3rd was answering the claim that no modern scholar believes "presence" is correct at Matthew 24. Of course this is merely a theological argument and not a lexical one. One can hardly blame the NWT for literally translating "parousia" (para= alongside, ousia=being ) at Matthew 24, that is unless their theology objects.

  Just a quick question for the group, has anyone had a chance to read what JW scholar Edgar Foster has written in "Your Word is Truth"... I am kind of curious what his angle was on this subject.
• 

  Sunspot

  I think you have lost it.

  THIS, is of course, assuming he ever had it in the first place! JWs attempting to make sense out of nonsense......only get deeper and deeper in the hole.
• 

  hillary_step

  Hi Gary,

  Vine taught that parousia should not be translated at all and that it (parousia) will start with the rapture of the Church, (when believers meet Christ in the air) and it will end with the manifestation of Christ in glory.

  Yes, though he believed that the parousia would begin with the rapture and last for a period of time, then culminate with the final judgement just as the WTS does, but from a different theological viewpoint. Vine's expository dictionary is an impressive work. Something like the 'Aid' book, and largely the 'Insight' books which were researched and written by.....who was it now?

  HS
• 

  fjtoth

  DttPixies,

  That is not the point, 3rd was answering the claim that no modern scholar believes "presence" is correct at Matthew 24.

  Not true. 3rd was boasting about Vine's credentials in an effort to make him appear more believable than others.

  Frank
• 

  fjtoth

  3rd,

  In fact, if the difference is not shown and both words are translated as coming the whole context becomes confusing and the true meaning of what is being said is lost.

  "Confusing," yes, to JWs but to nobody else! Frank