by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Do you compose those graphics?
I would have attempted to be a musician or an artist if life in the Watchtower hadn't put such a restriction upon me. In my old age, I'm just trying to catch up a little, mostly by borrowing from the talents of others.
I remember an old Watchtower that had the hand of god with a Brawny paper towel wiping out the sinners. Do you remember that one?
Seems I hardly remember anything of "old" or more "current" Watchtowers. Sorry.
Frank
I don't believe every member of the GB to be evil.
Frank
flash
Of course they are your own comments.
The difference is that 1 Corinthians 15 specifically says there is an "exception." It even uses the word. So, the reason why "Frank" makes an exception is because the Bible writer says so. Now, let's see the WT Society show us where a Bible writer spells out that Christ received more authority in 1914 than he already possessed from the time of his exaltion to the Father's right hand.
I can just hear the arguments if I were using a scripture to show an exception to Chirst receiving all authority. Show me in Matt 28:18 where Jesus made an exception to 'all authority' that he was receiving.. But that would be an unreasonable statement to make so Ok I will accept that exception in 1 Cor 15.. Sounds reasonable to me since it is in the Bible and clarifies what is meant when Jesus said 'All authority has been given..."
Now since you are willing to make an exception because of what the Bible says, will you also accept what Revelation 12:10 tells us. Years after Jesus has gone to heaven at the time of the end when the 7th world makes its appearance and Satan has been cast out of heaven Revelation says: “Now have come to pass ...the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down,..."
What does this mean? How can this be? Is Christ given some special authority here? Something to do with the kingdom of God?
And how about Daniel 7:13,14. AT the time of the last beast Daniel speaks of the Son of man being given rulership and kingdom. Why are you so willing to accept 1 Cor 15 and make an exception but you refuse to accept what these scriptures say about Christ receiving rulership and kingdom and power and authority in the time of the end long after his ressurection? Is it because you do not want to accept that JWs just might be right after all? Is it because you only accept the Bible when it fits your need to discredit JWs? Otherwise you ignore what it says?
thirdwitness,
You still haven't updated you web site regarding your apostate interpretation of the authority of the faithful and discreet slave. Can I ask, is this your position, or just a mistake?
steve
thirdwitness: Is Christ given some special authority here?
No. That would read more like, "Now Christ has been given authority." As in Matthew 28:18.
In this case it is clear from the context that the already possessed authority and the already possessed kingdom has just demonstrated itself in a special way. Namely, by throwing out the accuser. You really thought this verse meant he was GRANTED special or new authority? Why? He obviously had just USED his authority he previously possessed, nothing in the verse or context indicated that the authority was newly acquired.
Is this more sophism? It certainly seems that way.
AuldSoul
Hi all! I am new to this thread and have lurked here for a bit.
I am quite amazed at the tenacity of thirdwitness, and some of the other JW apologists. It is hard to believe that there are others as stubborn as I was!
When I felt all alone in the congregation back in the 90's, watching the elders dominate the friends, the quackery coming out of their mouths on the platform, the backstabbing gossip, the cliques, the under current of doubt, the lack of faith, love and confidence in the bible, I found friendship and an escape in the debating done online. It was invigorating and a lot more satisfying than handing out magazines to my neighbors or the long lines at the coffee shop.
Places like JWD such as H2O (remember those days AlanF?) I could express views openly, even divergent views from the Watchtower, without reprisals, or being hauled into the library for a star chamber intervention. I was not happy, and neither was my wife who had suffered severe depression for almost all of our married life. This despite that we were both active, regular pioneers, faithful meeting “attenders” and moved in all of the right circles. I just didn't get it.
I knew something was wrong in the Watchtower, but being raised in it gave us very little perspective and I just coudn't put my finger on it. I had invested so much of my life, intellect, time and energy into the religion, I just could not bring myself around to see that it was the religion that was the cause of my unhappiness, my wife’s depression and that of almost everyone else in the witness community that I knew. (Spanish and English)
My wife’s depression ended the day we left the JW’s, and frankly I have never been so at peace myself. You JW’s know the truth in your hearts that it is only a handful of JW’s in each congregation that are not heavily medicated or else outright delusional lunatics anyway. Like the old sister in our hall who used to fill up plastic jugs with “holy water” from the fountain at the hall to afraid to drink from the water pipes coming from “Satan’s system”, among others.
Like thirdwitness I was proud to defend the Watchtower, I had to as they were my master (Rom 6:12). Most of what I wrote, I did so out of duty and fear just like he (they, as at times he seems to have different writing styles) does.
I don’t know if the question has already been raised, but why doesn’t he reveal himself? If he is “in the truth” and is speaking the truth, what does he have to fear by coming out from behind the curtain of anonymity? Alan has, so has Frank Toth and a host of others. Likewise I have no qualms about identifying who I am.
The truth is that JW’s don’t have the ability to express themselves openly. thirdwitness knows that if he reveals who he/she/they are that they will be found out and likely thrown out.
So let’s have it. Let’s see who all of you JW apologists really are. If you truly believe that Jesus is directing your religion then you know he knows already who you are. You also know that if he is directing your religion and the elders are in his “right hand of control” then they will do no harm to you as you are advancing the cause of truth here. Aren’t you?
Let’s have it before the thread gets much longer:
Name:
Congregation(if still JW):
Capacity served (if still JW):
Status (come on tell us why you are really here, are you df'd or some other JW restriction?)
thirdwitless wrote in post # 306:
: Alan F: Having received all authority after his resurrection, Jesus could not possibly be appointed to a higher position or have received additional authority. All means all -- except perhaps in that fantasy land of Jehovah's Witnesses.
: Does all authority mean he was now over Jehovah also. All means all, right?
Frank debunked your stupid argument with 1 Corinthians 15:27. This idiotic argument is rendered even more ridiculous by the NWT's rendering of Colossians 1:15-20, which says about Jesus:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.
Fred Franz obviously took some pains to make sure that the reader understood that the word "all" was with the exception of God himself. Obviously, Matthew 28:18 must be understood in the same way. Jesus said: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." Even the statement itself makes it clear that God was excepted, because the authority was GIVEN to Jesus. By who? Obviously by someone higher in authority than he.
But you already know all this, so your argument is a deliberate attempt to deceive. Or perhaps you just don't know your Bible. Which is it?
: So God is a Trinity, right?
Without the insertion of "[other]" in Colossians 1:15-20, God is proved a Trinity, right?
: And how do you explain Daniel 7:13,14, "13 I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin."
Not a problem. Let's let the Bible answer. On the night before his death, Jesus faced his accusers and told them: "I say to YOU men, From henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64); "YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:62); "From now on the Son of man will be sitting at the powerful right hand of God." (Luke 22:69) According to the Gospel accounts, Jesus was then killed and, two days later, resurrected. Shortly after his resurrection, Jesus told his followers: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18) The writer of Philippians said that Jesus' prediction about his being exalted and receiving all authority had been fulfilled: "For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11) Obviously, all these passages are consistent with one another, and equally obviously, Philippians uses language virtually identical to that in Daniel 7:13, 14 to describe Jesus' exalted and supreme position as ruler over everything. Therefore, this passage in Daniel must have been fulfilled shortly after Jesus' resurrection.
: Revelation 12:10: “Now have come to pass ...the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down,
Obviously, this simply means that both God and Christ would at some future time begin exercising the supreme power they already had over the world of mankind.
In view of this scripture, your argument that Matthew 28:18 does not mean what it says when it states that Jesus had received "all authority" is ridiculous, because God has always had supreme power, yet Revelation describes the power and kingom of God as coming to pass.
: Luke 19 “A certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return. 13 Calling ten slaves of his he gave them ten mi´nas and told them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 15 “Eventually when he got back after having secured the kingly power,
You neglected the crucial introduction to this passage, from verse 11. Here Jesus tries to show his listerners why his kingom's visible appearance would not take place immediately, because they "were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly." He told them, in effect, "No, it's going to be awhile." He gave no indication of how long he would delay. Therefore, in view of the scriptures I've quoted above, verses 12-15 are not to be taken as a literal description of events that were to happen, but an illustration, an analogy that showed that there would be a delay before Jehovah and Jesus began exercising their power in a supremely good way toward the world of mankind. Even though Philippians 2:9-11 clearly states that Jesus had already been supremely exalted and that "every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground", certainly not "every knee" was bending to Jesus at the time Philippians was written. Therefore, the bending of knees by all to Jesus was yet future, even though he had received "all authority". The same concept applies to Luke 19.
I'm going to be busy with many things for several days, but will answer your typically stupid post # 305 as I'm able. It's as easy to debunk as your post here, but will take a good deal longer.
AlanF
Nice post, Frank75!
AlanF
