Why did God allow concubines among the faithful? (page 3)

Dansk

Qcmbr:

The LDS had polygamy recently until we failed to retain that commandment in the face of political extermination.

Are you a Mormon?

Ian

Qcmbr

Yep I'm LDS - sorry I didn't make it clear - I kinda assume I'm more recognisable than I really am.

I guess it probably does explain a lot Gill :)

Gill

Qcmbr - I can't understand why any man in his right mind, who isn't a power or control freak, would want more than one woman in his life at a time!

Let's face it Qcmbr, this is just the fantasy of some ancient sick cultures that still unfortunately exist today.

Gill - modern western society actively condones multiple relationships at the same time they have justified it by relegating marriage to pension rights and hospital visiting access while cleverly moving sex and 'love' into the realm of co-habitation or temporary dalliances. The difference between polygamy and modern society is that one entailed all the drudgery of actual real commitment backed up by law, a system that provided for children and wives while the other is one where men and women can bonk around the clock with absolutely no need to have any filial responsibility or emotional attachment to any partner. To me modern day society is the one that is wrong and gives no rights to the byproducts of casual sex (foetuses when we suck them out, babies when we see them on 3D scans), makes women a sexual target and the one night stand a very desirable social arrangment, breaks marriages up left right and centre (with adultery still the no1 cause of divorce) - a situation where no-one really wins and the innocent always suffer and absolutely glorifies multiple partners and sexual gratification where when and with whoever you want.

I think marriage is the only place for sex and children, I think a husband who loves and honours his wife seeking her happiness above his own will bring great joy to his family and is blameless in this whole debate and when polygamy is so instituted (from God and not by man) with such people who value integrity, love and devotion it is an absolutely difficult test that requires great real fortitude and understanding (rather than being some sexual orgy as suspected and beloved by much of society) and can actually work well.

I have yet to find someone who wants lots of sex with multiple partners advocate marriage to each partner as the best way to achieve their own gratification.

blondie

Didn't the 12 LDS Apostles get a revelation direct from God to end polygamy? Are you saying that God lets the political decisions of men determine his decisions?

Blondie

Gill

Qcmbr - Sorry to disagree with you on this but western culture actively tries to fight sex slavery.

Concubine = sex slave. Whether you want to see it that way or not, that's what a concubine is.

This is a completely different matter to a woman sleeping with whomever she chooses to sleep with.

Ask yourself this, Would you want your daughter to be a concubine? If not, then why not.

Would you rather your daughter be able to sleep with whoever she wanted to or would you prefer her to be one of many sex slaves of a depraved old pervert.

It's all about freedom of choice.

Maybe, you'd rather your daughter had no freedom at all. Maybe both are extreme examples, but at least one of the choices is the freedom to say 'yes' or 'no'. Should a woman not have that freedom.

Would you like your son to be a concubine? Or should only women be degraded in this manner by some depraved ancient war God of the Israelites.

Face it! This God was a figment of a pretty sick national immagination. Should we be holding up his values, or lack of them as an example for any one?

Dansk

Qcmbr:

When I left Watchtower I came across a Christian organisation that offered help to escape from cults. There were two telephone numbers. One for exiting JWs and another for those exiting the LDS! I very much think you are as much controlled by a cult as I was.

Ian

Qcmbr

Blondie - your right in that had we not claimed such an instruction we would have had to continue this but we have a similar instruction regarding another commandment we never fulfilled - the building of the Temple in Jackson county.

47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord.
48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practise before me, saith the Lord.
49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.
50 And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.
51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.
52 And I will answer judgment, wrath, and indignation, wailing, and anguish, and gnashing of teeth upon their heads, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord your God.
53 And this I make an example unto you, for your consolation concerning all those who have been commanded to do a work and have been hindered by the hands of their enemies, and by oppression, saith the Lord your God.

In other words we would not have sought release from this commandment (polygamy) if we had not been threatened with war .

Utah War from http://www.shiblon.com/beliefs/mormon-history.php (pro LDS)

The Republican Party held that the two relics of barbarism remaining in the United States were slavery and polygamy. Several federal appointees of Utah returned east creating rumors of insurrection among the Mormons. President James Buchanan targeted Mormon polygamy as a distraction from the more pressing matter of slavery. He used the bogus claims of the Mormons rebelling against the authority of the United States to send a newly appointed governor and five thousand troops to restore order. The Mormons refused to be driven from this place and prepared to defend themselves. Under this climate of war one of the most tragic events in Mormon history occurred. The Mountain Meadows Massacre happened shortly before the army and new governor arrived in Utah. The army was slowed in arriving to Utah which prevented a violent confrontation between them and the Mormons during the height of their paranoia. Brigham Young met with the new governor Alfred Cumming and obtained an assurance that Mormon settlers would not be harassed, after which he resigned the governorship. The Mormons had avoided war and further relocation. The Civil War took the pressure off the Mormons for a time, but at its end, with slavery abolished, polygamy again became a target. Several laws were passed outlawing polygamy. At first these were difficult to enforce, but after the death of Brigham Young many church leaders practicing polygamy were jailed or went into hiding. Pressure from the federal government increased until 1890 when Mormon Church president Wilford Woodruff announced a revelation from the Lord to end the practice of polygamy (Official Declaration 1).

Gill - I just disagree with your reading of the scriptures no offence I interpret the facts differently. I was interested in the idea that a concubine was a sexual slave which is one way of looking at it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubine but I suspect that its difficult to equate ancient cultural norms to today when slavery itself is seen as reprehensible. I don't see any evidence for example in the LDS experience of sexual slavery (talking generally rather than specifically - there may well have been nutters who took advantage.)

Ian - you may well be right.

Why did God allow concubines among the faithful?

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