Materialism and those with "spiritual experiences"

by slimboyfat 24 Replies latest jw friends

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  slimboyfat

  Why do you have to "make" anything of those people at all?

  As I explained in my previous post, it is precisely because I respect such people and take their claims seriously that I have to grapple with the implications of their stated experiences. Perhaps you would like a world where none of us cared what others believed regardless of whether we thought those beliefs had merit, but I would not. To the African who believes that a witch doctor can protect her from AIDS better than a condom would you say: "you are entitled to your beliefs, I will not interfere."

  Such a view of other humans is anything but "tolerant", it is indifference masquerading as liberalism.

  If you are inviting me to be indifferent to those who claim spiritual experiences I will decline because I believe it dimishes the dignity of us both. I take their claims seriously and scrutinize them accordingly.

  Slim
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  greendawn

  Human beings intrinsically have a spiritual dimension in their existence they have aspirations that go beyond the merely physical and historically they always did. That is what really sets them apart from the animal world. The physical body is part of the animal world but the spiritual dimension of man is not.
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  LittleToe

  Slim:

  I really have to take issue with this idea that materialism is an intolerant worldview.

  Noone said that. You're creating a straw man. Is this an emotive subject for you?

  Intolerance isn't found in holding a view; it's taking that as a basis and then denigrating other worldviews without evidence. Tolerance isn't patting someone on the head in condescension; rather it's simply accepting that something works for them, regardless of its validity.

  So much of life is about attitude and manner...

  Didier:

  This also applies to the "tolerant" ones which tolerate everything but intolerance. Even those who assume that every belief system is valid in its own right actually deny the validity of any exclusive system -- which in turn makes their inclusivism exclusive and self-contradictory. This seems an unsuperable limit to me.

  Hmmm - you've got me there!
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  Mysterious

  First year philosophy really turned me on my head when we were discussing these sorts of things. I could definitely see why JWs were not allowed to study it though.

  Okay here is my personal take on things, which I will be happy to correct if someone shows me a better or more logical viewpoint as my opinions on such matters are still quite fluid and changing. And hey if I ever have a spirtual experience I'll get back to you.

  I personally do not believe in spiritual experiences. I have not had one, nor has anyone who is close enough to me that I trust them as I do myself. When I left the JWs I wrestled with this issue because I wondered how they could not be god's people when they had the annointed. And I talked to one annointed lady, there was no deception in her. She was sincere and she believed she really was annointed. Then I started learning about similar experiences in other religions and thus resolved the JW issue, people with spiritual experiences were not exclusive to JWs and thus did not somehow prove god's favor upon them.

  I believe there are things that science and psychology currently cannot explain. In the past there were many more things that could not be explained. And in the future more things will be explained than we know now. I do not know what causes spiritual experiences and I do not believe that the majority of people who claim them are inventing them. (I'm sure there are cases where people do but I am not talking about them specifically.) For me not knowing what causes them is simply something that needs further research, it does not shake my belief that the underlying cause is natural and not supernatural.
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  JamesThomas

  Narkissos:

  Indeed, all imaginary representations, or theories, tend to be totalitarian and deny the others inasmuch as they are perceived as concurrent...This seems an unsuperable limit to me.

  Insurmountable only as long as "all imaginary representations and theories" are believed to be reality. Once clearly seen for what they are, the barrier dissolves.

  The door is always open.

  j