Watchtower Exploitation Begins!

by metatron 36 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  NameWithheld

  See what happens when you try and make sense of the bible?

  Troubled: You say that you see the many things that are wrong with the WTBTS. You say ...

  However, I do not believe it is a perfect religion, that we have a grasp on absolute knowledge, or that the GB has never made errors. In fact, I have my own personal struggle in certain areas of our religion, which I am trying to weigh, evaluate, research, and come to grips with.

  The weird thing is I've heard several other JWs say the same things. yet the 'struggle' all the while staying deeply entrenched in the bowels of the religion! How can you possible hope to comes to an understanding if you stay in their 'control'. And yes, the 5 meetings a week + FS + study = control. How can you possible hope to formulate YOU OWN opinions or thoughts on a matter when you feed so much from an obviously biased source of information? I just don't get it. You say there are problems, but you (and many others) won't step aside for awhile and think for yourself.

  It's always 'where will we go?' 'No one else teaches the truth about the bible'. Trust me, all religions think they have the 'truth' and can prove it with scriptures. If you were as deep into one of them you would be saying the same thing - but about Mormon/Cathlic/Baptist/Muslem/Budda/Whatever. Do you really think that if god has some 'organization' through which he dispensed 'truth' it would be so f*cked up? Come on get real!

  Truth - organ transplant = canabilism. Oops, no it doesn't.
  Truth - no scream during rape = fornication. Oops, no it doesn't. Oops yes it does. No it doesn't. Yes it does ... ... ..
  Truth - all blood = death. Oops, some blood factions OK. Recirculated blood OK.
  Truth - Oral sex = fornication. Oops, no it doesn't.
  Truth - 1879 second coming of Jesus, 1914 Armageddon. Oops, 1914 was second coming.

  Should I go on? It could go on for days. We won't mention 1925/1975/generation/end of century/etc.

  Why oh why do so many get sucked in because a) nice people, b) hope of earthly life? There are others how beleive in life on earth if that's appealing to you. There are nice people all over the world too.

  Start thinking for yourself, which means stop sucking on the teat of 5 meeting a week plus all the rest of the junk associated that keeps JWs running about like chickens w/ their heads cut off, no time to think!
• 

  roybatty

  >>Sometimes I think about Ninevah. How he had Jonah give the warning of destruction. But due to the hearts and responses of people, He did not bring such a destruction after all.
  I can appreciate your points.<<

  Troubled, I can appreciate you making this point but this is not what is taught. While I was a JW for some 25 years, I never recall this even being speculated or hoped for. However, I do remember being the study conductor and going through the Revelation book for the fourth or fifth time and finally just getting sick of all the illustrations showing how almost all of earth's inhabitants being destroyed while "Jehovah's people" smile and happy to see this destruction.
  I guess what's comforting for me now is that I can finally "do" something. I don't mean this as an insult but to me going door to door is such a "hollow" activity. JW's claim to bring comfort to people but is this true? Maybe in some cases but the "offical" purpose is to start a study, get them to the Hall and on the road to baptism. What a differnt feeling it is now for me to truly help people without some hidden agenda.
  Well, just my 2 cents.
• 

  troubled

  Sf,

  I do not know your circumstances, but can tell you are angry, bitter, and very hurt. I do not know your exact circumstances, but your pain bleeds through the words you've typed.

  I have no interest in war with you. You are a fellow human being who has been terribly hurt by something . And despite our differences and the pain you're feeling, I hope you find peace of mind in whatever way you must.
• 

  RipVanWinkle

  Nicodemus

  Thanks for your reply. It is quite clear that those of us who are Jehovah's witnesses are greatly outnumbered on this board. My parents left their belief system about 8 decades ago and chose because of their Bible study to leave behind teachings such as the trinity, infant baptism, limbo, purgatory, hellfire, holy crusades, infallibality of the Pope ( though they have made costly mistakes during the centuries with holy wars etc) ,celibacy etc.

  I watched the mass yesterday at St. Patrick's cathedral in NYC. Thousands came to show respect. Some believed the rituals and there were others who had a completely different view yet showed respect for those there, the dead, the suffering and the missing, as well as the service. I wonder how many on this board would have had the same response if it was a JW service?

  I have family who are still in that belief system but I grant them and those like them the dignity to believe their choice without maligning them - though they are not my beliefs. Unfortunately some on this board can not do this.

  It is clear that as humans we try to put everything into neat little categories about life and the future. We have no concept of what our compassionate God sees. He knows our genes, chromosomes, environment, education, and all that makes us tick. Even what we may become if we had a different set of circumstances. He knows about the mentally sick ones and when it comes time for judgment by Him he knows to do what is right - and will do it!.

  In the Bible it often speaks of Jesus coming "soon" or the end coming "soon". If those people would have not been motivated to study the Word and apply it in their lives they would have lost out on a better quality of life even in their time. How soon is "soon" to a fruit fly? to a turtle? to man? to God. I feel that in many ways I benefit from trying to apply the Bible in my life. Whether Armageddon comes "soon" in my lifetime or not is not my concern. God never asked me for my input. Who is the clay pot to contend with the potter?

  Peace to you Nicodemus!!

  RVW
• 

  sf

  "I have no interest in war with you."

  Nor I with you. You are NOT "the WTBTS". Those to whom this post is targeted at DO know I am speaking directly to Them. You are one of "jehovah's witnesses"...not the Society!

  You yourself are not who I am at war with. Please do not let my "blood" concern you. If you leave, Itake no responsibility in that. Ido invite you to yahoo voice chat though!

  Happy trails!

  sKally
• 

  Nicodemus

  SixofNine,

  Good question.

  In this context, I was referencing Paul's passionate defense of the resurrection belief in an environment where that topic was by no means universally accepted. His discussion is probably the most extensive, and specific, discussion of the resurrection in the Bible.

  I guess the logic was this:

  1. Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christians

  2. Paul's argument in 1 Cor 15 was that one could not claim to be a Christian unless one accepted the resurrection. He argues that, if the resurrection was not true, then Christ had not been resurrected. If Christ had not been resurrected, then there was no Christianity.

  3. If Christ was resurrected, he must have died. That would mean that God did, in fact, "love the world so much that he gave his only-begotten son . . ." (John 3:16) As a side point, it was Paul who further argued, at Romans 5:8, that God did so "while we were yet sinners." In other words, he made the first move.

  4. If God's love is truly that great, then he would take into account every possible factor before destroying any individual.

  And that, essentially, gets right back to what "Troubled" said.
• 

  SixofNine

  Nicodemus, thanks for the reply.

  If God's love is truly that great, then he would take into account every possible factor before destroying any individual.

  Fortunately, I tend to agree. Especially fortunate because I'm really about to push it here, lol. Troubled, sorry for the highjacking, I'm flyin' your thread straight into the Bible!

  Nicodemus, your post got me thinking about something I've let run through my mind before, usually around memorial time; Jesus spoke of someone who had died as "only sleeping" right? So, by his own words, did he really "die" for mankinds sins in any reasonable sense of the word? I mean, it was a nap, fer Christ sake! 3 days? That's like 15 seconds using the "day as a thousand years rule".

  Perhaps people like the rescue workers in NY are what Jesus was refering to when he said that others would do greater things than him. While they may have had "faith" in this or that afterlife, lets face it, they went in not really knowing what the future brings, just like every other human who has died serving others.
• 

  Nicodemus

  SixofNine,

  A couple of thoughts/questions:

  1. Consider the context of Jesus' remarks about Lazarus "sleeping." To whom were they said? What was he trying to convey, or help them understand?

  2. If one believes the resurrection, and Jesus' teaching about "sleeping, " I suppose one could ask whether anyone that would receive a resurrection really "dies."

  3. Another thought that may deserve consideration is that the issue may not be so much around how long Jesus was dead, but rather the manner and circumstances of his death. If one meditatively reads the Gospel accounts regarding, for example, his "sweat [becoming] as drops of blood" (Luke 22:44) and other similar accounts, one comes to appreciate the truly agonizing nature--on many levels--of what Jesus experienced during both the time leading up to his death, and throughout the process of his actual death.

  You mentioned 'Memorial time,' and I appreciate that reference. I usually find myself meditating far more at that time on things such as point #3 above than on all the technicalities about who has what hope, etc.
• 

  Cygnus

  : The only religion that talks about a material paradise on Earth is JW's.

  Totally not true.
• 

  SixofNine

  I opened this up to the board on another post, Nicodemus.

  I suppose one could ask whether anyone that would receive a resurrection really "dies."

  Most certainly. Except, none of us have seen resurection. None of us have experienced that. Our relatives have to do w/o us the rest of their lives. Meanwhile, even for people of faith, losing a loved one is agonizing beyond belief. Why is that? I wonder how real our faith really is/was at times like this. Suicide bombers I don't wonder about. Theirs' is real.

  3. Another thought that may deserve consideration is that the issue may not be so much around how long Jesus was dead, but rather the manner and circumstances of his death. If one meditatively reads the Gospel accounts regarding, for example, his "sweat [becoming] as drops of blood" (Luke 22:44) and other similar accounts, one comes to appreciate the truly agonizing nature--on many levels--of what Jesus experienced during both the time leading up to his death, and throughout the process of his actual death.

  I allude to my thoughts on this in the thread I opened. I just can't quite see it that way. The manner of his death seems like a walk in the park compared to many, many stories of death I am aware of. Many such stories taking place around the earth as we speak.

  Jesus was, emotionally, above the situation, in that he knew the reasons why, and had love even for his enemies. He knew he would be resurected in the wink of an eye. Ostensibly, he felt very much like he was giving to his fellow man, ie: this was not a sensless meaningless waste. There would be none of the terror that so many innocent children are subjected to before being killed.

  I used to feel guilty for having these thoughts when I would make the effort to meditate at memorial time. It tended to make me just skip over them, and try to make it feel like a bigger sacrifice than it really seems to me.