Would you look a gift horse in the mouth?

by LittleToe 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Dansk

  Ross,

  First of all I feel your title is misleading when it comes to myself because I don't feel I did! Like most people, on leaving the JWs Claire and I were traumatised, fragile and feeling almost as though we were in mourning. I sought help via a helpline given on the internet.

  Ian:

  :What I've found with most JW support groups over here is that they tend to be Christian-based, usually born agains.

  Ross:

  You don't think it's kinda telling that they are practically the only ones to actually organise support?

  Ian: I strongly felt there was an ulterior motive for this born again group to take an interest in me.

  Once I realised I'd contacted a Born Again group I had to drop them quick. I was receiving telephone calls from all over the country.

  Ross:

  Sounds like real concern, to me.

  Setting aside the occasionally pushy ones who want to convert ya, surely you've got to give them ten out of ten for effort?

  Ian:

  They may have been concerned, I don't know, but was it genuine concern? They were DEFINITELY the pushy type. I gave the man on the end of the telephone my number so that he could get back to me. I was NOT prepared for the telephone calls I received from various parts of the country. I hadn't given him permission to give my number out and the people who were phoning me were VERY PUSHY! I had to phone the original guy back and tell him to put a stop to all the calls, which he did.

  Now, as far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong) but born agains believe in a literal hellfire. What kind of a loving God is that? What kind of a loving god would allow the children to die so heinously in the nazi concentration camps?And be slaughtered in Rwanda? in Lebanon? To die of starvation in Sudan? The Tsunamis in Malaysia?

  When I left the JWs I wanted help away from ALL Bible-based religions. The person I phoned at first gave no indication at all that he was a born again!

  I've now been out of the Borg for over three years and I've researched as much as anyone. There's ample information out there from archaeology, scientists and historians to debunk all of the bible. I respect anyone's right to have a religion - but I detest those who would try and foster it onto me, which is what the born agains in question did!

  Many people here feel the need to believe in God and the Bible. Fine. As you know, I'm ok with that. I think it's crazy, but I'm ok with it.

  Looking a gift horse in the mouth? Never. Keeping free of another dogmatic religion? Definitely!

  Ian
• 

  mouthy

  Many people here feel the need to believe in God and the Bible. Fine. As you know, I'm ok with that. I think it's crazy, but I'm ok with it.

  Oh Ian Honest I "aint crazy" I just believe!!!! I still look out the window to the trees, birds, bees,flowers, kids, sun, moon, please darling tell me how they were formed.... I know how the kids came-but He gave the power!!! Dont hate me PLEASE!!!!
• 

  LittleToe

  Decki:Insightful comment about respect. Thanks. It doesn't mean that we can't view certain beliefs as hogwash, but it neither does mean we need to view the holders of those beliefs as imbeciles.

  Ian:
  Thanks for responding.

  I didn't mean to imply that you personally looked a gift horse in the mouth, it was just a few thoughts that swilled round as I was composing the post. I apologise if I gave that impression.

  It's exactly that sense of fragility and vulnerability that causes my own concern with those who claim to love people, but have an ulterior motive in wanting to "save souls".

  To be honest it sounds like there was a bit of a miscommunication between your first contact point and the others in that group. I seem to remember us briefly talking about it a few years ago. Knowing at least one of the people who contacted you, I do know that they can come across as overbearing. I wouldn't have wanted that, either!

  Touching beliefs, everyone is an individual and you can't declare that someone believes something just because a few others in their denomination believe it. Some believe in hellfire, some don't, some believe in evolution, some don't, some believe in the historical accuracy of the bible, some are content to enjoy the stories for what they get out of them. My point simply being that it's all too easy to generalise, and I guess that's what I found disconcerting about your post. I hope that's correction enough

  I guess I would throw in a question of: do you think that your bias against the bible and bible-based religions is in any way influenced by how YOU interpret the bible?

  • If it's merely a mix of stories formulated to express a point / spiritual message / exert control / give a sense of history, in various measures, then why take such a reaction to it?
  • If you have judged it/them against a criteria of holding ultimate truth and accuracy, then of course it's going to fail. Where did such a high expectation come from?

  I just find that certainly words and phrases jump out at me. So when I see things such as "had to drop them quick / debunk all / detest / crazy" I can't help but find it reactionary. I'm not condemning that, because I know you as a passionate soul and love ya to bits, but I naturally home in on it. Hence it's formed the basis of this particualr discussion

  Looking a gift horse in the mouth? Never. Keeping free of another dogmatic religion? Definitely!

  Couldn't agree more, my friend, couldn't agree more
• 

  Dansk

  Ross:

  I didn't mean to imply that you personally looked a gift horse in the mouth, it was just a few thoughts that swilled round as I was composing the post. I apologise if I gave that impression.

  I never took it that way either! That's the trouble with message boards and e-mails, they come over flat. One's real meanings are often misinterpreted because the feelings don't come through.

  I know you as a deeply loving Christian believer and we get on great. That's what I mean by my respecting everyone's religious beliefs. As I often say about myself, "Who the heck am I?" In other words, I'm a nobody and have no right to judge anyone else. So I don't judge!

  Yes, glad you remembered the overpowering guy

  Grace:

  Sorry if I upset you! I love you to bits and I know how much of a Christian you are - but I just can't believe in it myself! I believe in Buddhism and evolution. I see no disharmony between the two. I believe my essence will carry on, affected by karma.

  Everton just beat Liverpool 3-0, so I'm even more upbeat!

  Love to ALL,

  Ian
• 

  Sad emo

  Ian:

  Now, as far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong) but born agains believe in a literal hellfire.

  Not all of us!

  I feel that there is too broad a brush being used here for the term 'born-again Christian' - is there such a thing as a not-born-again Christian? (I pinched that one from pubsinger just in case he reads this later, lol!)

  There are some pushy ones out there - and even here on JWD - not you mouthy! They even get on my bleepin' nerves!! They're an embarrassment. In my past experience of being a Roman Catholic, the annoying ones were those who think they know all about what your church believes and think you need to be somehow 'delivered' from its 'influence' before they can 'really' begin to 'help' you
• 

  Sparkplug

  It doesn't mean that we can't view certain beliefs as hogwash, but it neither does mean we need to view the holders of those beliefs as imbeciles.

  Absolutely. I used to actually look down on people that have faith. I would comment on it also in the negative. I lost my faith a long time ago and am not really sure about most anything to do with the topic of God. I actually don't really believe at all in God or any of the higher powers, fate, predestination etc, but I do believe in living as well as I can and to do the right thing even if it is uncomfortable.

  This seems closely aligned with the plan that a lot of people have and the difference being that they attribute it to God, and I attribute it to being the 'right thing'. I still get a little uncomfortable and find it to be a bit of 'hogwash' (some of the belifs) but instead of snickering inside myself, I have a small bit of tenderness that actually raises its head for the people as I listen and watch them observing a sermon or taking information in. I dont feel so condescending.

  I also have to listen to a lot of people trying to encourage me about God. It seems to be the nature of working close with people.

  Strange this group of people I work with is a very religious lot and usually if you are an athiest or agnostic they give each other this 'knowing' look and are a bit curt. For some reason these people all welcome me and I hear them say to each other that I am saved by Grace or something like that. Or that I am a better Christian than most Christians. I am not really sure how to take it, for I still have a little prick in my mind when I hear about being Christlike. So I take it as a compliment. That is the intention they have in saying it and they have no idea how I 'actually' feel about the compliment.

  So as far as support, I have a lot come my way from people I work with during my main job. They all know painfully how I feel about it all and yet I see them struggle to talk to me and not be preachy. It is funny at times, but so far it is almost like I am the exception to them. There are a few other athiest agnostics and Satanist at work and they are concidered doomed and possessed (depending which one) but me, they just take in like a bunch of protective mother hens. I am not sure what the difference is, but I do like feeling and benefiting from their concern.

  And with that, I tend to not even feel as ugly as I used to about other religions. I actually feel pretty accepting of them the way they are. Now they have some ways that rake on my nerves, but the distain is lost.
• 

  Carmel

  The JW mantra that "Christianity is the only true religion, and we are the only True Christians" plays subtle games on ones mindset when is considering what possible alternative there might be to being a Jdub. I think most exdubs tend to consider all religion a "scam" or they jump into another christian sect feeling they have somehow stayed safely in the appropriate camp of God! Only when one challenges both those claims is there an opportunity to see new possible paradigms.

  Support that comes unconditionally is a rare commodity, but it doesn't always come from the source you might expect.

  carmel
• 

  Sparkplug

  Only when one challenges both those claims is there an opportunity to see new possible paradigms.

  I agree. Breaking the Christianity mindset is really a challenge in itself.

  doesn't always come from the source you might expect.

  Isn't it amazing where it shows up? Places I would least expect.
• 

  Dansk

  And I think that by trying to please God all the time we are missing out on really living today.

  Ian
• 

  myelaine

  Neil Young and Crazy Horse...

  Well, I dreamed I saw the knights in armor coming
  Sayin' something about a queen
  There were peasants singin' and drummers drumming
  And the archer split the tree
  There was a fanfare blowin' to the sun
  That floated on the breeze
  Look at mother nature on the run in the nineteen seventies
  Look at mother nature on the run in the nineteen seventies
  
  I was lyin' in a burned out basement
  With a full moon in my eyes
  I was hopin' for a replacement
  When the sun burst through the skies
  There was a band playin' in my head
  And I felt like getting high
  Thinkin' about what a friend had said,
  I was hopin' it was a lie
  Thinkin' about what a friend had said,
  I was hopin' it was a lie
  
  Well, I dreamed I saw the silver spaceships flying
  In the yellow haze of the sun
  There were children crying and colors flying
  All around the chosen ones
  All in a dream, all in a dream
  The loading had begun
  Flyin' mother nature's silver seed
  To a new home in the sun
  Flyin' mother nature's silver seed
  To a new home in the sun

  love michelle