To add to jwfacts post:
The elders were also instructed that if authorities demanded such files they were to destroy them and stte, "There are no files"!! This is part of the illegality that influenced the above-mentioned judge's summing-up.
Has anyone read this article..
by earthtone 85 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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carlitos
3W just proves the evil Apostates time and time again. 3W-You will never win this battle of words since we all know how this evil Corporation works, "confuse them with rule after rule" Why can't the Watchtower be honest and straightforward like most other companies and dare I say other religious bodies. Even the Catholic church admits it has a problem and tries to do something about it. We all know here that it is impossible to do this with a Corporation that is more concerned with perception than reality. It is a shame that most JW's will never realize this until it's too late. Such Pharisees-this so-called religion has given us rule after rule to burden everybody's load and does not give them the freedom to think or act within their Christian freedom. Ray Franz was right in saying that we were all "captives of a concept" HAH-such lies!!! Makes me want to puke-and yes, we do have hatred towards this religion that bound us for so many years with guilt and hatred!! 3W-go on with your lie of a life within this religion and try to convince some schmuck that knows nothing about the Watchtower, after all you are a hypocrite by being among the evil apostates. Do you not know you are breaking rule XXX.XXX of the "pay attention to the flock" book. Unless you are Jesus himself, you have no reason to try to be among the evil class!!
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mkr32208
Thirdwitness has the knack of making sh-t look like gold. He did it in the U.N. thread and now he's doing it here.
Edited; Thirdwitness has the knack TRYING to make sh-t look like gold. He TRIED it in the U.N. thread and now he's TRYING TO do it here. The reality is he ends up looking like an idiot.
The policy of JWs is never tell anyone they cannot go to the police and never discourage them from going to the police.
You are a DISGUSTING liar! Not only was I discouraged from going to the police but I was told at 12 years old that it was my FAULT for suducing a 23 year old elders son! The problem is in PROVING it! See the court assumes that if an elder swears to tell the truth on a bible that would somehow be binding to them! The thing is it's not! The elders have no problem with lying in court under oath! They (like you) are disgusting twisted scumbags!
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ozziepost
In refuting the article which is the topic on this thread, 3W dismisses what he refers to as "hearsay". The claims would be hearsay if they were simply third hand rumors. The thing is, they are not third hand. As I posted above, the claims that the WTS instructed elders to place themselves 'above the law' has been attested to and proven in court of law.
Even on this thread we have two former elders who were serving at Bethel (jwfacts and myself) and who corroborate the claims and can attest that indeed BOE were instructed to act illegally.
This in accordance with the scriptural principle "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses" - 2 Corinthians 13:1
No doubt, 3W will obfuscate when he addresses this issue (as he usually does) but the attested facts remain and lurkers may form their own opinions.
I might add that I suspect the only way 3W can refute the facts is to call us liars - and we know what that means!
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monkeyshine
Wouldn't a second witness to child molestation be considered a child molester? What would this person say, "Oh yes, I was there, I watched the entire thing. Yep, call the cops, he's guilty. By the way, I did nothing wrong. I did my spiritual duty and came forward to help the victim and do the right thing. I'm not a molester, I just like to watch."
Hey 3rd, I asked you respectfully to show me a couple things and with those answers you know what questions are next. It is not logical to answer a question when it is obvious this answer raises new questions, very obvious to me and you. It's being deceptive and it is hard to believe someone when they have been deceptive to me.
I thought you were a 'scholar', and I'm not being sarcastic, I just thought there would be a better explanation for something so important. It's no little thing. I think you have been backed in to a corner on this one.
One more thing-----if it's Bible law, as you say, to use this rule, doesn't it make you question the Bible? Not even the entire thing, just questioning the fact that in today's world maybe not EVERY SINGLE LITTLE WORD in the Bible should be blindly followed.
Man wrote the Bible. Maybe the light is getting brighter. Yes, it says it was inspired by God, but has there ever been a case where man was inspired by God and they had to change what they originally wrote due to times changing and lights brightening? Remember this time is not saying "Oh, that was like 50 years ago! Yes we said those things, but that's a long time ago." It's actually saying "Oh that was like 2,000 years ago, but that's a long time ago." Wouldn't that second saying be just as justified if not more due to the amount of time the light has had to brighten?
Would changing inspired word be wrong? Please help, I'm confused.
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parakeet
TW: ***You would have been wise to do research for yourself to see exactly what JWs teach rather than listening to what someone told you. If you had researched it for yourself you would have found out that whether or not someone seeks professional help is a personal decision that should not be criticized by the elders or anyone in the congregation.***
You might want to educate yourself about severe clinical depression. It was all I could do to get out of bed in the morning, let alone "research" what elders told me. This was a severe health crisis, and the people and religion I had depended on to give me guidance based on "accurate knowledge" from the fds completely failed me. BTW, this all happened nearly 30 years ago, long before the WTS letters you presented were written. Like you, the WTS loves to mouth the words as though saying them actually means anything. -
Crumpet
You have surely got to know that what you said here is untrue. A person does not get marked for disagreeing with elders who are obviously wrong as proven by the WT publications. The person is by no means going against 'the direction of the spirit appointed organization' by disregarding inaccurate information from an elder and any elder will tell you that. All a person has to do is look it up if an elder tells them something that is wrong. We are not to blindly follow the elders or the WTS
Either you are incredibly naive or deliberately obtuse. I am speaking as someone on the receiving end of unofficial marking which i endured through much of my formative years and it was instigated by the elders.
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mkr32208
Either you are incredibly naive or deliberately obtuse.
No 3w is a LIAR! He is from his papa...
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truth.ceeker
It would appear to many people that Jehovah's Witnesses have two Bibles. The physical bible that is used to teach and to keep themselves out of trouble by following it word for word. And the non-physical bible that is the verbal direction and guidelines that is given out from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society / Governing Body and disseminated to the District Overseers, Circuit Overseers and Elders.
With these two chains of commend the physical bible has now become more of a tool that is used to absolve their sinful actions that the verbal bible has condemned them with.
As with this case, it is truly sad that children are so many times the victim and it seems they hardly get a fair chance of someone being honest and admitting their mistakes in trying to follow orders and instead tries to save face under the guise of not bringing reproach upon the name of GOD. My only comfort at this time is found at:
Mat 18:6 But whoever causes one of these little ones believing in Me to offend, it is better for him that a millstone turned by an ass be hung on his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea. As well as knowing that I have a personal line of communication with my Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus in prayer. Jesus tells us how innocent children are and how they have the characteristics of being able to enter into His Kingdom. We all know too well that Satan will use children to pervert mankind and cause so much pain because of Jesus' special attention and His love towards them. Not until I became a father did I have a better idea of how GOD and Jesus must feel when a child is hurt. My heart screams loudly that this injustice must be stopped and my spirit and knowledge of GOD and Jesus helps to comfort me that the time for this to end is not indefinite.
Maybe thirdwitness will be moved by GOD to have an empathetic heartfelt attitude towards these things instead of just examining 'The Facts'. I will pray for GOD to have mercy on him and move him to have a kinder heart as it seems his zeal is quite strong. I pray that thirdwitness' heart is not hardened like that of Pharaoh, but as to the Will of My GOD, I can only be patient and wait for it to be done in His time.
..truth.ceeker..
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JWdaughter
You quote things I have not researched, and make statements that I can not verify or have no knowledge of-these things I will not attempt to disagree publically about. HOWEVER, I read this:
Third witness - are you seriously suggesting that someone who wishes to remain in good standing with the org should go against direction from the elders who have told them not to seek therpeutic help should do so anyway?
Yes I am. Once the elders are shown that they are wrong they will have to admit it and there is nothing they can do about it. When elders are wrong you are not expected to do what they say.
You must know what the repercussions of that would be to the person. They would be marked, albeit unofficially, for not accepting the direction of the spirit appointed organization.
You have surely got to know that what you said here is untrue. A person does not get marked for disagreeing with elders who are obviously wrong as proven by the WT publications. The person is by no means going against 'the direction of the spirit appointed organization' by disregarding inaccurate information from an elder and any elder will tell you that. All a person has to do is look it up if an elder tells them something that is wrong. We are not to blindly follow the elders or the WTS.
THIS is not the truth you have written. IF you were at all familiar with the WT organization, Jehovah's Witnesses and the "Christian Congregation" you would know how incorrect that is. One cannot bring up ANY disagreement with WT teachings or practices and remain in good standing-officially or unofficially. The kindgom halls are very political, very class oriented. One cannot challenge either an elder or the WT teachings without knowing that there will be discipline of some sort HIGHLY likely, whether it is underhanded or open, they will be 'marked'. Likely they will be reproved, possibly accused of other things in order to protect the elder or the organization. You have seen it and so has nearly everyone on this board that has any association with JW's. One of the biggest issues is that people give JW elders and the organizational dictates so much authority in their lives. Thus they live in fear of angering their ruler. There is plenty of history and documentation to show what the WT has said in the past about therapists such as psychologists and psychiatrists. THere is also evidence that if we do not like or agree with the WT or elders teachings, we are not supposed to question them-we are to "WAIT ON JEHOVAH". And you know, from the way that the WT org 'couches' its phrasing, that many things that they give nominal (if reluctant) approval of, they are REALLY saying "DON'T DO IT" like voting, some kinds of medical treatment(conscience matters-my foot). There is the said and the unsaid. Basically,(WT says) if you have a recognized chemical(bi-polar etc) issue, get treatment, but when you are simply in having an 'emotional' issue-be careful of any kind of therapy that involves going into your life issues, after of course speaking with the elders about it, praying etc. . . ( Faithful servants of God may express themselves irrationally at times because of severe inner turmoil. (Job 6:2, 3) James 5:13-16 encourages such ones to call on the elders for help and counsel. A Christian may be spiritually sick, or he may be distressed by an unchangeable circumstance or by oppressive stresses, or he may feel that he is the victim of injustice. (Ecclesiastes 7:7; Isaiah 32:2; 2 Corinthians 12:7-10) Such a person can find help with the elders, who will ?grease him with oil??that is, skillfully impart comforting Bible counsel?and also ?pray over him.? The result? ?The prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up [out of his despondency or his feeling of being abandoned by God].? What, though, if a person?s mental distress and confusion persist despite the skillful help of spiritual shepherds? Some in this situation have chosen to undergo a thorough physical examination. (Compare Proverbs 14:30; 16:24; 1 Corinthians 12:26.) A physical problem may lie behind emotional or mental distress. Treating such a problem has in some cases given relief to the emotionally ill person. If no physical problem is found, the physician, upon request, may recommend a mental-health professional. What then? As stated, this is a decision each individual must weigh for himself. Others should not criticize or judge.?Romans 14:4.(full article below) *** w96 9/1 30-1 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers Would it be wise for a Christian to consult a mental-health practitioner? Reports from some lands indicate that there has been an increase in emotional and mental illnesses in these ?last days.? (2 Timothy 3:1) Christians feel deep compassion when fellow believers are affected, but they recognize that each one must decide for himself whether to seek treatment for his illness and, if so, what kind of treatment. ?Each one will carry his own load.? (Galatians 6:5) Some, suffering severely from schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, deep clinical depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, self-mutilation, and other distressing disorders, have been able to live fairly normal lives after obtaining the right professional help. In some places it has become quite fashionable to seek therapy. In many cases the patient does not have a severe mental disorder but has difficulty coping with some situation in life. However, it is the Bible that gives the most effective help in handling the difficult problems of life. (Psalm 119:28, 143) Through the Bible, Jehovah supplies wisdom, thinking ability, and true knowledge?things that fortify us mentally and emotionally. (Proverbs 2:1-11; Hebrews 13:6) Faithful servants of God may express themselves irrationally at times because of severe inner turmoil. (Job 6:2, 3) James 5:13-16 encourages such ones to call on the elders for help and counsel. A Christian may be spiritually sick, or he may be distressed by an unchangeable circumstance or by oppressive stresses, or he may feel that he is the victim of injustice. (Ecclesiastes 7:7; Isaiah 32:2; 2 Corinthians 12:7-10) Such a person can find help with the elders, who will ?grease him with oil??that is, skillfully impart comforting Bible counsel?and also ?pray over him.? The result? ?The prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up [out of his despondency or his feeling of being abandoned by God].? What, though, if a person?s mental distress and confusion persist despite the skillful help of spiritual shepherds? Some in this situation have chosen to undergo a thorough physical examination. (Compare Proverbs 14:30; 16:24; 1 Corinthians 12:26.) A physical problem may lie behind emotional or mental distress. Treating such a problem has in some cases given relief to the emotionally ill person. If no physical problem is found, the physician, upon request, may recommend a mental-health professional. What then? As stated, this is a decision each individual must weigh for himself. Others should not criticize or judge.?Romans 14:4. Nevertheless, practical wisdom must be exercised and care taken not to forget Bible principles. (Proverbs 3:21; Ecclesiastes 12:13) In the case of physical sickness, patients are faced with a variety of treatment choices, from orthodox medicine to therapies such as naturopathy, acupuncture, and homeopathy. There are also different kinds of mental-health practitioners. Among them are analytic psychotherapists and others, who may delve into the patient?s personal history to try to find reasons for irregular behavior or painful emotions. Behavioral psychotherapists may try to help the patient learn new behavior patterns. Some mental-health practitioners believe that most mental illnesses should be treated with drugs. Reportedly, others recommend diet and vitamins. Patients and their families should use caution when considering these choices. (Proverbs 14:15) Significantly, Professor Paul McHugh, director of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, said that the mental-health profession ?is a rudimentary medical art. It lacks easy access to proof of its proposals even as it deals with disorders of the most complex features of human life?mind and behavior.? This situation leaves the door open to eccentricity and fraud, as well as well-intentioned treatments that may do more harm than good. It should be mentioned, too, that while psychiatrists and psychologists have professional, postgraduate degrees, many others with no professional qualifications practice without supervision as counselors or therapists. Some individuals have spent a lot of money consulting such unqualified people. Even with a trained, qualified mental-health professional, there are things to consider. When choosing a medical doctor or surgeon, we have to be sure that he will respect our Bible-based views. Similarly, it would be dangerous to consult a mental-health professional who does not respect our religious and moral views. Many Christians are striving hard, despite mental and emotional confusion, to have ?the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had.? (Romans 15:5) Such are rightly concerned about the attitudes of anyone who might affect their thinking or behavior. Some practitioners view any restrictions imposed by Scriptural beliefs as unnecessary and potentially harmful to mental health. They may approve, even recommend, practices condemned in the Bible, such as homosexuality or marital infidelity. These ideas are included in what the apostle Paul called ?the contradictions of the falsely called ?knowledge.?? (1 Timothy 6:20) They contradict the truth about the Christ and are part of ?the philosophy and empty deception? of this world. (Colossians 2:8) The Bible?s touchstone is clear: ?There is no wisdom, nor any discernment, nor any counsel in opposition to Jehovah.? (Proverbs 21:30) Mental-health practitioners who say ?good is bad and bad is good? are ?bad associations.? Far from helping to heal unstable minds, they will ?spoil useful habits.??Isaiah 5:20; 1 Corinthians 15:33. So a Christian who feels that it is necessary to consult a mental-health professional should scrutinize the qualifications, attitude, and reputation of the practitioner and the possible effect of any treatment recommended. If a distressed Christian cannot do this himself, perhaps a mature, close friend or relative may be able to help. A Christian who is uncertain as to the wisdom of a particular treatment may find that talking with the elders in the congregation is helpful?although the final decision is his own (or his parents?, or the joint decision of husband and wife).
*9*9*9*9 And we know the advice we are given if we don't like something that is taught or done in the org.:
*** w96 3/15 16-17 Meeting the Challenge of Loyalty *** 9 We now come to the matter of being loyal to Jehovah?s visible organization. Certainly, we owe loyalty to it, including ?the faithful and discreet slave,? through which the Christian congregation is fed spiritually. (Matthew 24:45-47) Suppose that something appears in Watch Tower publications that we do not understand or agree with at the moment. What will we do? Take offense and leave the organization? That is what some did when The Watch Tower, many years ago, applied the new covenant to the Millennium. Others took offense at what The Watchtower once said on the issue of neutrality. If those who stumbled over these matters had been loyal to the organization and to their brothers, they would have waited on Jehovah to clarify these matters, which he did in his due time. Thus, loyalty includes waiting patiently until further understanding is published by the faithful and discreet slave.