Mary, Thank you so very much for this information - my oldest daughter is a radiologist - she read your info with great interest and, in fact, had me send it to her pc, so she can print it out for her class. I think she plans to show it to a JW who is in her class, LOL.
PROOF JESUS DIED ON A CROSS
by Mary 33 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Devilsnok
Sorry Mary I can' t accept this until you confirm that you sat there and typed it out with a hanky on your head
lol
-
Atlantis
Thank you Mary for the information! I sent you a pm for the link because I think it could help in proving to JWs that they need to "examine" what the Watchtower has deceived them into accepting!
Thanks again Mary!
Nevada-
-
I_am_an_idiot
Interesting read, but...
This is why the convicts would get a nail hammered into their feet. Although it was painful, the person could support themselves on that nail (look up the size of nails used). After hours of suffering this way, the Roman custom was to break their legs so they could no longer support their bodies and thus as your medical journal points out, they would die faster.
-
Narkissos
If I read correctly, the 10' span is for people hanging by hands alone, so it is not exactly applicable to the JW "torture stake" on which the feet were nailed and the legs could still share in lifting the body for breathing to an extent. Yet it's quite likely that the latter would not allow for hours.
One interesting argument (at least with a JW) is that according to Mark 15:44 Jesus died sooner than expected, implying that the crucifixion process usually took more than 6 hours -- which confirms your point.
On edit:
IAaI, sorry for repeating what you said, I read your post later.
Beardo, the (probable) addition to Josephus is in Greek and uses stauros, so the mere use of "crucifixion" in English translation doesn't really solve the question -- although it is pretty clear to me that stauros did mean a T-cross in this context.
-
Mary
Sorry Mary I can' t accept this until you confirm that you sat there and typed it out with a hanky on your head
Geeze...I couldn't find a hanky, so I grabbed the closest thing that I thought wouldn't offend the angels.....or demunz.
the 10' span is for people hanging by hands alone , so it is not exactly applicable to the JW "torture stake" on which the feet were nailed and the legs could still share in lifting the body for breathing to an extent. Yet it's quite likely that the latter would not allow for hours.
Possibly, but I think that even if you had your feet nailed, the exersion of having your hands directely over your head would bring about death alot sooner than what it took Jesus to die. The article did not mention that there would be a big difference in having your feet nailed in comparison to the example above.....I would think that if it was a major difference, the article would have noted it.
One interesting argument (at least with a JW) is that according to Mark 15:44 Jesus died sooner than expected, implying that the crucifixion process usually took more than 6 hours -- which confirms your point.
It could sometimes take days. As if suffering for hours wasn't bad enough, the Romans thought of a way to extend the torture for days in some cases. They would attach a "seat" on the cross just under the person's bum. With this support, the cruxifiction could last for days. As to why it "only" took about 6 hours for Jesus to die, the article in Bible Review concluded that he most likely died from shock and loss of blood, not because of suffication. I don't have access to the info at home here, but when I go into work tomorrow, I'll post it.
-
James Free
I think the Society teaches the upright pole rather than the cross just so they can be different from other churches like so many of their bogus teachings.
This is my opinion too. I don't know the exact shape and dimensions of the stake/cross, and nor does anyone else. I don't push single views anymore like the WT does - it's best to leave room for all possibilities.
-
Dansk
Please accept that I respect everybody's views here but I'd just like to ask where exactly is this PROOF that Jesus died on a cross - or even a stake? Could someone please direct me to any historical evidence outside the Bible that proves Jesus existed? Are there any Roman documents from Pilate that say he oversaw Jesus being crucified? The quotation taken from Josephus regarding Jesus is accepted by scholars as being completely spurious.
Seriously, I'm NOT trying to undermine this thread. I am genuinely interested in locating any historical evidence outside the Bible that Jesus existed. I believe nothing was written down in scripture about Jesus until 40 years after his death. Where's the secular evidence for Jesus performing the miracles attributed to him? Where's the secular evidence for his crucifiction? The only real proof would be contained in such documents.
Ian
-
Beardo
Beardo, the (probable) addition to Josephus is in Greek and uses stauros, so the mere use of "crucifixion" in English translation doesn't really solve the question -- although it is pretty clear to me that stauros did mean a T-cross in this context.
Yep.
My point is, that the orthodox church have used the image of the cross since the early days of Christianity, so who should we trust?
To be honest, I no longer care either way, as I can see the agenda both ways. JWs want to be seperate so have to use their own unique iconography and get very dogmatic about this whole issue.
Its pathetic really.
-
Narkissos
Ian,
I personally take the sentence "Jesus died on a cross" as meaning "the Gospel Passion stories have Jesus dying on a cross" -- it's about understanding a narrative, not deciding historicity.