Elsewhere, I need you to answer a question for me, if you're still following this thread. You keep saying "The Muslims demonstrate this" or "The Muslims took offense at that." You realize, don't you, that there are between 900 million and 1.5 billion Muslims on this planet, right?
You seem to believe, based on your statements, that this gigantic homogeneous group of people speak with one voice and think with one mind.
Is that the case?
And if so, are you comfortable with that kind of stereotyping and categorizing of your fellow humans?
Muslims demonstrate that they are not violent by firebombing churches
by Elsewhere 78 Replies latest jw friends
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under_believer
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Elsewhere
Elsewhere, I need you to answer a question for me, if you're still following this thread. You keep saying "The Muslims demonstrate this" or "The Muslims took offense at that." You realize, don't you, that there are between 900 million and 1.5 billion Muslims on this planet, right?
You seem to believe, based on your statements, that this gigantic homogeneous group of people speak with one voice and think with one mind.
Is that the case?
And if so, are you comfortable with that kind of stereotyping and categorizing of your fellow humans?Keep in mind, I did not say all Muslims. I just said Muslims.
The response in the Muslim community was sparked by the comments of a single Christian. If the words of a single Christian are enough for a number of Muslims to justify firebombing churches, the murder of a nun, and chants for the destruction of the entire Christian religion, then I feel justified in my comments about Muslims.
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Merry Magdalene
I know it's difficult, people, but IMO it is important to come to a more accurate understanding of what Islam is and what it teaches seperately from what some Muslims say and do. Then you will be able to determine if various individual and group actions are actually Islamic or not. (This was something I also found to be necessary when exploring Christianity. Although I initially rejected Christianity completely when leaving JWs, I eventually had to return to a deeper exploration of it. I could not reconcile all groups, teachings, or behaviours that were labeled "Christian" as being Christ-like.)
There is an Islamic religion which is a way of life, but I don't think there is an Islamic "culture" as Muslims are a part of many different cultures. Over a billion people consider themselves to be Muslims and they are of various races, nationalities, and cultures. About 18% live in the Arab world. The largest Muslim population is in Indonesia. Substantial populations in Asia and Africa are Muslim, with significant minorities in the Soviet Union, China, North and South America, and Europe. There are about 7 million in the USA.
As in Christianity, you will find differences in opinion, understanding, belief, and activity. And, as with any other group, it is the "radicals" who generally get the most attention and who can colour peoples opinions of the religion as a whole.
But here are some of the core, basic beliefs, as I understand them:
*There is One Unique, Incomparable God who created and controls everything, good and bad. No one and nothing else is worthy of worship.
*There are angels, life after death, and a day of judgment.
*God has sent prophets to every people in every time to guide them in the way that is best. Not all of them are known to us, nor has the guidance sent down through them been preserved and followed as it was originally given but has become corrupted. Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to mankind as a final prophet and the Qur'an is God's final message of guidance. All are invited to learn of it and embrace or reject it as they see fit. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error...." (Qur'an 2:256) "Say: O unbelievers! I do not serve that which you serve, Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve, Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." (Qur'an 109:1-6) "God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you from your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just." (Qur'an 60:8)
*The 5 Pillars of Islam are Faith, Prayer, Purification of Wealth through giving a portion to those in need, Fasting, and Pilgrimage.
In regard to violent rioting, this quote from the Prophet seems fitting: "Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger."
In regard to war: "Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." (Qur'an 2:190) "If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things." (Qur'an 8:61) "Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman." "Do not kill the monks in monasteries." "Do not kill the poeple who are sitting in places of worship."--Instructions from the Prophet (pbuh). There are also instructions not to destroy crops and trees.
In regard to freedom and democracy, a Discover Islam brochure has this to say: "While many so-called Muslim nations are not, Islam is democratic in spirit. Islam advocates the right to vote, the right to self-governance and the right to self-determination. The Qur'an enjoins Muslims to rule themselves through consultation and concensus. Muslims believe that each person is responsible for his or her own deeds; and that all stand equal before God."
~Merry
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Elsewhere
Regardless of what the Qur'an teaches, the simple reality is that I would be killed by a mob if I walked down the streets of a Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Afghanistan or any other "Muslim State" wearing a t-shirt that said: "Infidel" in both English and Arabic. Here in "evil and satanic" America anyone from any religion can walk around the streets with a controversial t-shirt with a swarm of lawyers and Judges waiting to defend his right to do so.
Anyone can write down laws for a "Holy Book" and anyone can carry around a "Holy Book" and quote from it all day long, but that does not mean they will actually live by the contents of that "Holy Book".
I look at actions, not words.
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Merry Magdalene
Elsewhere, I hope you didn't miss my point entirely, and I want to let you know I'm not missing yours.
I do get the irony of what is happening (the irony just knocks me out!) and I do understand the importance of dealing with the reality of a situation and protecting oneself from danger. I'm not advocating that people pretend these things aren't happening nor saying that it is justified. I am just saying it's wrong to judge an entire religious group on the words, actions and beliefs of some when these are neither encouraged nor condoned by their most fundamental teachings. (I'm also not accusing you of doing that, but it is happening and with alarming frequency.)
~Merry
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under_believer
Any religion as a state religion is bad. "Muslim countries" are by default bad, because there are people who believe they have a hotline to God running the place. We've all seen where that leads.
Nor do I buy "Islam is a religion of peace". I don't buy that of any religion.
Nevertheless I'm uncomfortable with level of generalization you're making. I'm willing to allow that perhaps it's simply my lack of experience with people of this faith. I admit that I've never known anyone who was Islamic. Perhaps that's why I'm leery of buying into the hype.
On the other had I see the burqas, and watch the dancing in the streets after 9/11, and hear the public statements after that cartoon flap in Denmark, and I wonder. -
lowden
Elsewhwere said
Regardless of what the Qur'an teaches, the simple reality is that I would be killed by a mob if I walked down the streets of a Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Afghanistan or any other "Muslim State" wearing a t-shirt that said: "Infidel" in both English and Arabic.
I have known quite a few Moslems and nice ones too but the above statement, IMO truly reflects the collective mindset of this sinister movement.
Dismembered earlier related the fatwa that was placed upon Salman Rushdie's head a few years ago for his book The Satanic Verses. Rushdie had used his own freedom of speech to write a fictitious book and ended up with a price on his head. The book by the way is not blasphemous to a Moslem who recognises both free speech and artistic intent.
Here in the UK Moslem mobs took to the streets, jumping up and down, publicly burning the book and baring their collective teeth. Had they read the book? Well i would say that the vast majority hadn't. Those evil bastards would have ripped Rushdie to bits if he'd turned up on the street. He had to spend the next few years in a secret location in fear of his life.
Roy Harper an English singer/songwriter was inspired to write 'The Black Cloud of Islam' following the Rushdie Affair.
Islam is indeed a Black Cloud over the earth!
We are years on from the Rushdie Affair and it continues to grow in strength. Whilst the evil intent may come from a minority, the majority are always too quick to join in with chillingly ill-educated minds.
Islams' adherents largely have no tolerance for free speech and the UK is currently under it's whip, bending and bowing to its whims which are cleverly shrouded in terms of 'equality'. For pity's sake, some schools are scared to put up Christmas Trees in Moslem dominated schools for fear of offending the pupils.
In 20 years time the UK will be a shit hole....i will not be here.
Just to balance this out, Christianity doesn't have a much dissimilar record, as we know.
Peace
Lowden
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Narkissos
the simple reality is that I would be killed by a mob if I walked down the streets of a Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Afghanistan or any other "Muslim State" wearing a t-shirt that said: "Infidel" in both English and Arabic.
Hmm... I guess in big cities you would rather raise mildly amused smiles until you get arrested by the local police and get a good scolding.
In small towns it's a bit different, because religion is still an integral part of the cultural and social framework.
But of course whole cultures and societies can't stand in the face of your absolute right to wear any t-shirt anywhere in the world -- although I wonder how far I'd get into the USA with a "I Bin Laden" t-shirt (and I can think of a few others).
Muslims are over one fifth of mankind.
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Mary
it's wrong to judge an entire religious group on the words, actions and beliefs of some when these are neither encouraged nor condoned by their most fundamental teachings. (I'm also not accusing you of doing that, but it is happening and with alarming frequency.)
While the majority of Muslims are not active terrorists, I believe that if push comes to shove, they would side with the fanatical regimes rather than the side of Democracy. I have no problem with moderate Muslims. My dentist is one and he's a great guy. We talk about religion and he believes in "live and let live". He had no desire to kill me as an "infidel" or rape or beat me because I'm not covered from head to toe. Unfortunately, you don't see this attitude in Islamic countries, which seem to be getting crazier and more fanatic by the day. In reality, the religion and culture are so intertwined that you can't seperate them. They teach their children in public schools the chant "Death to Israel!" and "Death to America" each and every morning. Children grow up in an atmosphere of paranoia, hatred and intollerance.
The Toronto Star had an interesting article as to why more and more Muslims are becoming terrorists and it's basically the same reason why youth in developed nations join gangs:
Shame, rage and Mideast violence Sep. 17, 2006. 08:36 AM RON CHARACH SPECIAL TO THE STARA recent essay by Thomas Homer-Dixon of the Trudeau Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies wisely advised against the folly of looking for a single factor to explain terrorism and endorsed the need for more investigation into its multiple causes. "Participants in terror tend to be men in their twenties or thirties who are ferociously angry because of powerful feelings of humiliation" (emphasis mine), he wrote. He identified a few potential sources of such humiliation, such as a lack of political and economic opportunity, then added that terrorists strongly identify with a group, society or culture they perceive as oppressed or exploited.
"Extremist leaders then inflame and manipulate these feelings of humiliation, partly by defining the `enemy' ? the group or society that's responsible for all problems and that should be the target for attack," Homer-Dixon said.
In this article, I speculate about some psychological underpinnings that might lead young people to become "ferociously" angry and have "powerful" feelings of humiliation. But first a brief look at the differences between the emotions of shame and guilt is in order.
In classical psychoanalysis, shame is viewed as an earlier, more basic emotion than guilt, shame being tied to the very early phases in the formation of a cohesive sense of self. By contrast, guilt feelings are developed later as the product of a more fully formed conscience, an achievement that only occurs once the child has given up intense libidinal and aggressive ties to early parenting figures.
Interference with normal development may cause a failure to neutralize these powerful bonds, a persistence of infantile narcissism and a later tendency to experience heightened shame and rage. Such interference may result from trauma with or without the early loss of parents, overindulgence or overstimulation by parents, or excessive use of punishment and other shaming techniques in child rearing.
If a child is repeatedly overwhelmed by shame and rage, he or she will have problems setting up abstract ideals and may, in order to shore up their sense of well-being as an adult, instead opt to serve idealized parent-like figures; they become a version those fervent men and women cheering at mass rallies in which hyperbole and blind allegiance are the norm.
Alternatively, a psychologically vulnerable person may create an idealized version of his or her own self in order to maintain internal balance. Such grandiosity typically requires a reviled Other onto which one can project one's personal deficiencies ? members of a rival sect, women, men, homosexuals, or members of other races.
A psychoanalyst who extensively explored the origins of shame and rage in the human psyche was the late Heinz Kohut, founder of the school of therapy known as Self Psychology. His theories are useful in understanding and treating narcissistic personality disturbances. To Kohut, the development of a cohesive sense of self is a lifelong project, one that relies on a child receiving accurate empathy from his or her parents ? a sense of being accurately "mirrored."
With their emphasis on suppressing the sexual drive and their elevation of the afterlife over life itself, many fundamentalist religions and sects are repressive in nature and resort to shaming people to keep them in line. They give strict directions at the expense of empathic understanding. They can provide their children with a coherent narrative but also with a groupthink that can lead to sanctioning the persecution of select groups that challenge that narrative.
Islamic fundamentalists are not alone in having a fraught psychology: Ohio State English professor emeritus Walter A. Davis recently wrote an interesting essay for Counterpunch in which he exposes the dangers of the literalism, the obsession with apocalypse, and especially the troubled anti-sexual attitudes of the Christian fundamentalist right and how these have dovetailed with many of the blind spots of the Bush administration.
The shame/rage cycle is unpleasant to contemplate, but we ignore it at our peril. Even in the mass killings that traumatize our own society, we repeatedly hear that the young perpetrator "seemed depressed," "was a loner," "was abused by a parent" or "repeatedly taunted by his peers." We keep hearing that "he had a need to get even" with a particular group. How very rare are the exceptions to these rules.
Unfortunately, the shaming practices in fundamentalist societies are not widely discussed. In the case of the Muslim world, perhaps the only area where it is an active subject is in feminist discourse.
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daystar
The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it. Who's pudding? And who's eating it?
And that's all I have to say about that.
