So for our "congregation book study", we are still deeply mired in the Bible Teach book. This week's lesson talks about the whole idea that the book of Job relates the central issue of the entire cosmos, a vital issue raised by Satan, where Satan questions whether humans follow God because of what they are given, or because he deserves it.
I'm surprised that the book of Job, obviously archetypal and figurative (for example, I doubt people back then literally spoke for hours in Hebrew verse, and I doubt that four messengers showed up all in a row with stories telling that they, only they, got away to tell of a disaster) even has a place in the canon; aside from its lack of any specific historical position or accuracy, the argument it advances (especially as the Society interprets it) is facile: The idea that privileged, wealthy, powerful Job somehow stands as a representative for all humanity and serves as a litmus test for Man's interaction with God is downright silly. No test was needed; no real challenge was raised. Many poor, hungry, disadvantaged, sick, dying masses of people have served God throughout history, with no expectation of present material benefits. It was a non-issue; if anything, the only issue that was raised was whether Job himself served God because of material blessings.
But what really blew me away about the lesson is what I perceive to be a misapplication of Proverbs 27:11, translated in the NWT as "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." The Bible Teach book states that God is the one speaking in this verse, talking to all of his servants everywhere then and for all times in the future. They say that "the one that is taunting him" is Satan, and that we have to stay free from worldly, Satanic influence and faithful to God so that God may make a reply Satan. They say that since this verse was (ostensibly) written hundreds of years after the events of Job took place, it meant that Satan was still taunting God and that Job's faithfulness didn't settle the issue.
But Proverbs 27:11 is situated squarely in a series of chapters of Proverbs that the Bible attributes to Solomon, starting with the statement "These also are the proverbs of Solomon that the men of Hezekiah the king of Judah transcribed". They are solidly in the "general wisdom" category--advice for life, pithy sayings, and stress on obedience to the King (one wonders of the admitted origin of these verses--transcription by the men of Hezekiah the king--could have contributed to some of these sentiments). It most certainly does NOT claim to be prophetic or "typical" (in the Society's sense of the word) in any way. There is no indication that God is speaking here, or that the "me" of Prov 27:11 is God--rather, the context itself indicates that it was Solomon at best, and some random scribe seeking to solidify Hezekiah's political power base at worst.
This makes the whole argument a house of cards--we aren't involved in some huge cosmic "court case" that is being decided by our actions and service to God. Common sense dictates this--why would the Creator of the entire Universe need to make a reply to one of his creations, anyways? But maybe seeing how the Society misuses one of their primary proof texts for this concept will help people to break free from this silly misunderstanding of Scripture.
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer 117 Replies latest jw friends
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under_believer
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Scully
What I always wanted to know when I was a JW was (1) if Satan is not as powerful as Jehovah, why can't Jehovah just whup his a$$ and show him who's in charge? and (2) why does Jehovah - if he is so powerful - need puny mortal humans to prove that Satan is a liar?
However, considering that I'm an atheist now, it's all just a pile of highly malodorous crap, and I steer clear.
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Zico
Thanks for this post Under_Believer. Does it say who was taunting Solomon though? And what were they taunting him about? Zico.
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Hecklerboy
A funny thing about the Job story is that the winesses today are proving Satan right.
Satan made the statement that man would only worship God if they had something to gain from it. We'll that's how the Society get people to worship God. By dangling a the carrot of Paradise in front of them. I always heard "You better go to the meeting and get baptised so you can be in paradise".
How many people today serve God out of the goodness of their heart. Most do it to get to heaven.
So we are all just proving Satan right.
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greendawn
The story of Job is obviously a myth as you stated numerous people were tested before and after for their faith. As for the proverbs verse who can know for sure that there we have a conflict between Satan and god? How do the dubs justify their interpretation.
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fullofdoubtnow
I always saw Job as a bit of a fairy tale, even when I was a committed dub, and I could never understand why the wts made so much of it. There are plenty of scriptural examples of people who's faith stood up under pressure, without devoting a whole book to a tale about one man.
These days, I think the whole bible is a fairytale.
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under_believer
Zico, no, it does not. I suspect that if Solomon really wrote it (a question that is open to debate, considering Proverbs' pedigree) that it was written as a piece of general advice entreating wisdom, and then showing the positive result of wisdom. It is sitting there among hundreds of other verses of general wisdom and is the only one that speaks in the first person. I doubt it was speaking specifically to any of Solomon's actual sons, nor that it was referring to any specific taunter or event.
greendawn, they DON'T try to justify it. The Society uses this scripture in two ways: in many instances they say that it is God speaking directly to us (example: w53 p102), and in other instances they say that it is Jehovah speaking to Jesus (example: w53 p268). In all cases, though, there is no explanation for why they think it is Jehovah speaking, or why they believe that it is us (or Jesus) that he is speaking to. It appears that because it seems to fit with their way of thinking (i.e. Satan is taunting Jehovah, there's a cosmic court case going on, etc) they simply assume that the scripture has greater import than its context would indicate. It is NEVER considered in context in any of the citations of it that I can find. Here's a good example of their level of analysis of this verse (notice that everything is just pat and assumed, they don't try to defend their application nor discuss the context):
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*** w71 9/1 p. 534 par. 14 Joyous Results of Maintained Integrity ***
But an even greater reason for our being joyful is spoken of in Proverbs 27:11. Let us read and analyze this verse together: ?Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.? Jehovah is telling us to be wise. How can we be wise? How can we show wisdom? By taking in knowledge from the Bible and then by applying that knowledge in our lives. In other words, by keeping integrity to Bible principles. If we are wise in this way, what does it do? It makes God?s heart rejoice. Why? Because we can serve as an answer to ?him that is taunting God,? that is, Satan the Devil. Yes, Jehovah can point to integrity-keepers to prove Satan?s challenge that he could turn all men away from God is false, just as Jehovah did in the case of Job.
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greendawn
Under believer, it is therefore another arbitrary interpretation of the FDS, it obviously aims at getting the dubs in order, they must feel really guilty and awful if they let jehovah down in his contest with satan. That's a smart mind game.
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Mr. E
This makes the whole argument a house of cards--we aren't involved in some huge cosmic "court case" that is being decided by our actions and service to God. Common sense dictates this--why would the Creator of the entire Universe need to make a reply to one of his creations, anyways? But maybe seeing how the Society misuses one of their primary proof texts for this concept will help people to break free from this silly misunderstanding of Scripture.
Those in the heavens rebelled and misled those upon the earth. This under free will where spirits and humans were allowed an opportunity to live without God as ruler. We now know good and evil, which one do you choose? A period of time had to be allowed to show all offspring the difference, so we can make the choice of good. Those that choose badness after the thousand year reign of Christ will be cut off forever, or put to death. This was the main reason for allowing badness to reign but only for a period of time. Humans have caused much destruction upon the earth while living under our own rule. The Almighty, out of Great Wisdom had to prove to His children that He is needed in order to survive.
Mr. E
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Warlock
Satan made the statement that man would only worship God if they had something to gain from it. We'll that's how the Society get people to worship God. By dangling a the carrot of Paradise in front of them. I always heard "You better go to the meeting and get baptised so you can be in paradise".
Heck,
I understand your point here, however, remember the other accusation Satan made. He said Jehovah had put up a hedge around Job so nothing bad would happen to him. There is certainly no hedge around J.W.'s today.
Warlock