Careful, there, Mr. E. You are advocating a viewpoint that allows anyone to apply any scripture, any way they like. In reality, it's vital to consider the context of each scripture--why was it written? What does the surrounding passage say? Who was the writer, and who was his audience? [You are correct in what you have written, however I did not mean that anyone can apply any scripture without careful consideration. Jehovah had the bible written, and we peer into its meaning]
> The meaning applys to job, does it not?
In fact there is no evidence that the writer of Prov 27:11 had any intent to write about Job. Remember, the surrounding verses have absolutely nothing to do with this "great court case." Nothing to do with Job at all. The fact that the writer expresses a sentiment that could be seen as being similar to Jehovah's regarding the testing incident does not mean that in fact it is referring to that event. The Society read that scripture, realized it supported their belief that we must help God make a reply to Satan, and applied it that way. But that doesn't automatically mean they're correct--you don't believe they are infallible, do you? [Correct, there is no evidence that it singled out job. But the meaning of the scripture applys to his account. Love Jehovah your God in good and bad season, not just for the things He provides for us. This is the meaning of Job, which then proves satan wrong, the one that taunts the Almighty God. No organization, or person is infallible upon the earth. All men fall short of the glory of God.] > All scriptures are from Jehovah to us, agreed?
Absolutely not agreed. If that was the case, then everything in the Mosaic Law would still apply to Christians. We can't just take scriptures in isolation and read them as though they are God talking to us. In fact, the Mosaic law has been invalidated. In fact, humans are no longer under a command to "be fruitful and fill the earth and become many." In fact, Christians no longer directly receive the Holy Spirit for gifts of prophecy, tongues, and so on. Those are just some examples of where scriptures should not be read as a direct command from Jehovah to us. There are many more, including, I believe, Prov. 27:11. [The scriptures were written for mankind, therefore for us. I did not state that they made application to each and every individual.Written for our understanding and making application are two different subjects.]
Why is this the case? Because, put in context, these various scriptures no longer apply in this modern age.
Prov 27:11 and its context makes no mention of Job, of Jehovah, of Jesus, of Satan, of any universal court case, of any challenge to divine sovereignty. The Society is misusing it (very often) to support a doctrine which is never even mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Universal Sovereignty is a red herring. It is self-aggrandizement by the Society, making humans (and Witnesses in particular) far more important than the Bible gives them any right to feel. [Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. All scripture applys to humans from the beginning to the end whether for our instruction, or to provide spiritual strength.] Mr. E
"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"
by under_believer 117 Replies latest jw friends
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Mr. E
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under_believer
But look at how the Society is using Prov. 27:11:
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*** bh chap. 12 p. 119 par. 14 Living in a Way That Pleases God ***
The issue of integrity to God that was raised by Satan was not directed against Job alone. You too are involved. This is clearly shown at Proverbs 27:11, where Jehovah's Word says: "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." These words, written hundreds of years after Job's death, show that Satan was still taunting God and accusing His servants. When we live in a way that pleases Jehovah, we actually help to give an answer to Satan's false charges, and in that way we make God's heart rejoice. How do you feel about that? Would it not be wonderful to have a part in answering the Devil's lying claims, even if it means making certain changes in your life?
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By referring to the amount of time that had transpired since Job supposedly took place, they're saying that Proverbs 27:11 was written explicitly about Satan taunting Jehovah. But there's no indication that that's actually the case. Nobody reading that scripture would ever think that, taken in context, especially embedded in such an odd place where it doesn't fit. -
fullofdoubtnow
Hi Mr E, and welcome to the forum
Tell me, is it a coincidence that you and a poster named Estephan, and another poster named Estephandeleuse have the same IP number?
Just wondering
Jul 13, 2006 Post 16 of 118
since 11-Jul-06Oh poor baby! You want me to quit telling you want to do? Honey I can't make you do anything. I can't even tell you what to do. I can only give my opinion. C'mon be a man. speak plainly and tell me to shutup. You can say it but you can't make me do it.
A real man refrains from using harsh language even though your haughty attitude deserves it. Jah will correct you in due season. I am concluding my converrsation with you. Have a great day.By the way I like the "kiss my ass" comment
Josie
IP: 3RW17UFTOG2dlacM 13-Jul-06 19:12 Jul 13, 2006 by Estephan: Correct formatting -
Mr. E
Hi Mr E, and welcome to the forum
Tell me, is it a coincidence that you and a poster named Estephan, and another poster named Estephandeleuse have the same IP number?
Just wondering
Thank you for welcoming me =)
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Mr. E
By referring to the amount of time that had transpired since Job supposedly took place, they're saying that Proverbs 27:11 was written explicitly about Satan taunting Jehovah. But there's no indication that that's actually the case. Nobody reading that scripture would ever think that, taken in context, especially embedded in such an odd place where it doesn't fit.
Please refer to Revelations 12:7-10 for evidence of taunting.......
Mr. E
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under_believer
This is an example of exactly what I'm talking about--Regardless of whether Rev. contains passages indicating that Satan "accuses our brothers" (note: it doesn't say anything about him accusing or taunting God)--regardless of all of that, it still doesn't validate the Bible Teach book application of Proverbs 27:11 (one which has been used hundreds of times to enforce organizational loyalty and Pharasaical cleanliness among Jehovah's Witnesses.)
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AuldSoul
Mr. E,
Welcome!
[Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. All scripture applys to humans from the beginning to the end whether for our instruction, or to provide spiritual strength.]
I'm going to take this in pieces. Bite sized chunks, if you will.
(1) "Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."
So is Jesus. (Revelation 22:12-16) In fact, nothing in the Greek manuscripts allows for ever stating with authority that this title belongs to Jehovah at all. See the recent discussion of the unconscionable insertion of YHWH into the NT.
(2) "All scripture applys to humans from the beginning to the end whether for our instruction, or to provide spiritual strength."
All scripture being beneficial for humans does not equate to all scripture applying to humans. Your attempt to twist the meaning of what 2 Timothy 3:16 says has not gone unnoticed. And who interprets whether a particular verse is for one purpose or for another? I think under_believer was perfectly clear that he believes the context shows this is only applicable in the general sense that almost all proverbs from every culture are applicable.
On that note, the wording of 2 Timothy 3:16 could not possibly be said to include the Gospels, the record of the Acts of the Apostles, or any of the letters from the early church fathers unless we take the words literally. In which case, everything written (which is what the word for Scripture means) is inspired of God and beneficial.
But, ultimately, this becomes a question of who it is that has authority to interpret the way in which a given verse should be applied. If we are going to give the job to a group of men who've proven for years they can't get anything right when it comes to interpretation, we might as well let my six-year-old neice do the interpreting. Certainly you can agree that, in context, Proverbs 27:11 is NOT referring specifically to Jehovah, Jehovah's servants, and Satan respectively. Any application along those lines is interpretive and contrived, not implicit in the text itself.
I await your considered reply.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
AlanF
The issue of whether mankind can keep integrity to God is a huge strawman that the Watchtower Society loves to invoke. It claims that the issue had to be proved to angels by actually allowing Satan to test mankind in various ways, and that a good way of doing this was to allow Satan to test Job. That this is a ridiculous claim can be shown in several ways:
(1) If God fully knows how humans are built and all of man's parts "are down in writing", then mankind's ability to keep integrity is part of the "design specification". Since the Bible states that some angels in Noah's day sinned by creating fully human bodies for themselves, it follows that these angels fully know the "design spec". Therefore, if any such supernatural beings raised a question about mankind's abilities, God would simply have to tell them, "Read the design spec", and the issue would be settled. In particular, a claim that no man can keep integrity to God would be easy to verify. So would a claim that a specific man could not keep integrity.
(2) Mankind is comprised of a large number of individuals with all manner of proclivities. Some are going to do bad things no matter what. Some are going to do good things no matter what. Some will go either way depending on any number of factors. Therefore, testing a single man -- Job -- gives information only about Job, not about anyone else.
(3) The notion of testing at the hands of Satan is unfair. Satan is said to be a supernatural being with power to control natural forces, and intelligense far beyond what humans possess. To allow such a being to test any human is obviously unfair. To allow such a being to kill dozens of innocent people in an attempt to win a bet with God is extremely unfair on the part of God. Are humans mere pawns in a cosmic chess game? Were Job's children and others completely expendable and mere objects of sport? Does it make sense that Job would be ok with God allowing his children to be killed in this sport and then 'replaced' with other children, as if children were replaceable possessions? Of course not. That's why the Job myth is obviously the product of an ancient patriarchal culture in which wives and children were mere property. In such a culture it makes a certain amount of sense.
AlanF
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Mr. E
Mr. E,
Welcome! [Thank you kindly]
[Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. All scripture applys to humans from the beginning to the end whether for our instruction, or to provide spiritual strength.]
I'm going to take this in pieces. Bite sized chunks, if you will.
(1) "Jehovah is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."
[Jesus becoming a God like His Father can attribute to the meaning of Jesus Christ as Alpha and Omega also, knowing all from beginning to end. I and the Father are One]
So is Jesus. (Revelation 22:12-16) In fact, nothing in the Greek manuscripts allows for ever stating with authority that this title belongs to Jehovah at all. See the recent discussion of the unconscionable insertion of YHWH into the NT.
(2) "All scripture applys to humans from the beginning to the end whether for our instruction, or to provide spiritual strength."
All scripture being beneficial for humans does not equate to all scripture applying to humans. Your attempt to twist the meaning of what 2 Timothy 3:16 says has not gone unnoticed. And who interprets whether a particular verse is for one purpose or for another? I think under_believer was perfectly clear that he believes the context shows this is only applicable in the general sense that almost all proverbs from every culture are applicable.
[The scriptures apply to those in the heavens also. Those in the heaven are higher in intelligence so Jah had to hide the meaning of all scriptures until Jesus Christ reveals them to us all. This is why they questioned Jesus as to the time of their torment while Jesus was upon the earth. If they cannot understand the full meaning, neither can humans upon the earth.]
On that note, the wording of 2 Timothy 3:16 could not possibly be said to include the Gospels, the record of the Acts of the Apostles, or any of the letters from the early church fathers unless we take the words literally. In which case, everything written (which is what the word for Scripture means) is inspired of God and beneficial.
[2 Timothy reads: ALL scripture. The accounts in the bible are very instructive would you not agree?]
But, ultimately, this becomes a question of who it is that has authority to interpret the way in which a given verse should be applied. If we are going to give the job to a group of men who've proven for years they can't get anything right when it comes to interpretation, we might as well let my six-year-old neice do the interpreting. Certainly you can agree that, in context, Proverbs 27:11 is NOT referring specifically to Jehovah, Jehovah's servants, and Satan respectively. Any application along those lines is interpretive and contrived, not implicit in the text itself.
[I do not claim that the W.T.S. has full authorization to interpret the scripture under divine guidance. It is written that those that seek shall find. There are many well versed people in the bible, and have an understanding of some where others do not. Consider this to be a gift from Jah]
I await your considered reply.
Respectfully,
AuldSoulJehovah applauds you gracious mannerisms and respect, and I reply in like manner
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under_believer
Saying "Those in the heaven are higher in intelligence so Jah had to hide the meaning of all scriptures until Jesus Christ reveals them to us all" is crazy--it's pure conjecture. No Scripture supports the claim that there was some kind of vast cosmic conspiracy to keep all the demons in the dark. The ethical implications of such a situation alone are enough to disqualify it.
As far as the "all scripture inspired" thing, remember that none of the gospels, or Acts, or Revelation had been written yet at that time. The Way was spread orally at that time. Paul was clearly referring to what we now know as the Old Testament. Paul didn't know he was writing scripture, either.
If you want to take the viewpoint that Paul was referring to all existing Scripture and everything that would later come to be regarded as Scripture, I want to ask you which Bible he was referring to. The Catholic Bible, with Maccabees in it? The Protestant Bible you probably cut your teeth on? What about the Eastern Orthodox Bible? All of these Bibles include different books. Or did he mean everything everyone would ever claim to be Scripture, like the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, etc...?
I'd also be careful speaking about what Jehovah applauds, unless you can back up the claim that he's speaking directly to you.